Stations

[F50]

Stations are not hard enough. This has been talked about before but has never got its own topic. Consider the Sung Citadel. It dies quickly, and it will never have the chance to strike back at you. Most of its ships are too slow to reach you before you have long left the scene of the crime and you can blast away at them while they pitifully follow you and do not return fire. The problem with crystals applies to stations too, but please, please, save that for another topic. Here are a couple solutions.

A. Stations should be able to shoot at you when you are a long, long way away. This would increase the bonus of stealth armor whcih would decrease the range that a station can track you back down to 30-50 lightsecconds.

B. Stations could have potentially large power reserves and thus could have shields. These large shields would have a small regen rate and would take a long, long time to come back up if you took them down.

C. Stations could have a contact weapon to make sure the player always has the chance of getting hurt by the ships guarding it.

D. Stations could have more hp, take less damage to weapons like the shuriken and hanzo.

Personally I think A would be significant enough and is fairly simple as well.

[george moromisato]

(A) is implemented in the next version. I think it definitely helps and I'm eager for people to try it. But I also think we need other changes.

Here is another (related) question: What would make fighting stations more fun? What skill should be used to kill stations? Is fighting stations about maneuvering skill? Is it about strategy? Is it about aim?

[p.s.: Thanks for bringing up this topic.]

[Betelgeuse]

I think it should be more about strategy. We already have aiming for small ships and maneuvering skill for ships in general. It would be cool if you needed to get a fleet to fight some of the really tough ones. Maybe you can ask the CSC to help you crack some of the stations that would be impractical on your own. Another thing stations can do is send out mine layers. They control that area and if left alone they should reinforce there territory.

I think the station problem comes from two sources. Them not moving or doing anything active to protect themselves. A solution to this is giving them ICX or minelayer ships.
The other problem is that you have to balance the stations for there earliest occurrence. (this is a lesser problem with ships because there is such a variety of ships) What would be useful is a way for it to be the same ship/station but have different equipment depending on the level of the system.

I am thinking something like this

Code: Select all

	<Devices>
		<Device level = "default" deviceID="&itRecoillessCannon;"/>
		<Device level = "5,6,7" deviceID="&itSlamCannon;"/>	</Devices>

[OddBob]

D. Stations could have more hp, take less damage to weapons like the shuriken and hanzo.

\

I really don't like this. The resons stations aren't fun is the 30 seconds you spent holding fire on autopilot after the defenders are gone. I think that it actually needs to be reduced.


I think fighting stations should be about whatever skill the player is best at.

I think that when you assualt a station, there will probably be some form of patrol at long range around the station (this is for the large stations, not every pirate cache). It could be a mine field, a sensor net, actual ships, or, like the Ventari, the inner defenses firing at you (but not chasing you). You can avoid these, distract them, or blow them up.

Then , at medium range, where the station is a bit less than halfway between the center and edge of your LRS, there's something else, like turrets (which would actually be closer in firing to this range), or more ships, that you need to either avoid (via maneuverability), or blow up (via firing skills).

by the time the station is in visual range, you have already done most of the work, and you can blow it up fairly quickly with average weapons for that level. Or, if you outmaneuvered the defenses, you grab the loot and run.

[SparcMan]

In my opinion, fighting stations is usually too monotonous. Most of the time, you trash the guards and then just sit at a distance and pound away at it until it dies. I don't really have an issue with the idea that stations are fragile and not particularly battle hardened. In fact, what I think would make station fighting more interesting is if the stations and/or it's defenders packed a bigger wallop but the station was a bit easier to kill (but can also regenerate itself as well).

[palmiche]

Since a station with millions of people, ships, etc. is not supposed to be destroyed by a single ship no matter how strong it is I guess that if the ship is able to hit once the station's core reactor there is no need to hit anything else.

What if (like in Star Wars DeathStar) stations do have weak spots instead of hit points, so what you have to do is destroy this spots (with one shoot, no more), to destroy the station itself. But the scorts are going to do a very good work keeping you away from this spots and covering the spots in case you are skillful enought to get it in you line-of-fire.

[Fossaman]

Realism =/= fun.

That's why orbits aren't to scale already.

I hate having to sit and pound away at late game stations; it takes a lot of fuel and time, as well as being boring. I think heavily guarded stations that are fairly fragile are the way to go.

What if (like in Star Wars DeathStar) stations do have weak spots instead of hit points, so what you have to do is destroy this spots (with one shoot, no more), to destroy the station itself.

I wouldn't mind seeing this on one or two station types (such as Ranx fortresses or Sung Citadels) but having it on other stations would get a bit cheesy. I can understand hitting an ammo dump and having everything go up in flames and/or copious explosions, though.

[F50]

Perhaps all stations shouldn't be treated the same. Variety, I think, is the antidote for monotony. For instance, some could be more suted for prolonged sieges range thus having their hp boosted (like sung citadels), some could rely on destroying key points (also comming with an hp boost) (like Ranx Fotresses). Others could be weak and mostly about dealing with a considerable force having thier hp reduced and a guard in such a formation that you could not produce effective siege (think luminous), and more could be about dealing with a mix of powerful guns and ships (such as Ares Communes) which, once reduced to rubble, leave the station undefended and vulnurable to any weapon which the player chooses.

Although these would be the reccomended way to bust stations, *any* brute force method should still work (however long this may take).

Here are some other changes which might help.

Ares Commune: should be less vulnerable to siege initially (perhaps a shield that extends just *short* of the AAC turrets so you have to shoot up close or deal with much more hp). Also slightly less hp than it has now. Token siege shots can draw away the defenders for you to wreak havoc on the station itself.

Ranx Fortress: Should not completely run out of (weak) defenders, the explosives placed near it should be sufficent to bring its hp down enough so that the player will not have to suffer much bombardment

Luminous Assembler: should have some of its drones make a defensive barrier against siege initially, these drones would not be lured away easily until the player aproches around 50 ls.


Having stations AND ships modify slightly for randomness and danger level would be great betelgeuse, but that might take a while to code. But please, PLEASE do not give them ICX, though mine/barricade layers I think would be natural things to do if you knew you were under attack (I have suggested autons for that before). Personally, OddBob, I do not think that fighting stations should be about whatever skill the player is best at. After all, the badguys want it to be about the player's worst skill. In response to SparcMan I think ALL large stations (not just large friendly stations) should regenerate.

Perhaps the player could buy (expensive) charges to detonate near undefended stations(can be shot down before it arms). If there are no guards and the station doesn't have weapons...

[Czert]

Anf for stations - I always wondering, why have stations only one docking level (with limit cca 8 ships). Stations (in game) are realy big structures, and is strange to have very limited docking space.
I thing two (or more) docking ring (levels) are better - upper and lower.(escpecialy for gigantic station Point Juno - 3-4 levels).
One level will be used for comercial travels (tourists, crew - simply people) and secon for cargo (supplies, goods).
In graphics terms - upper level ship simply (partialy) overlap lower level ship.

[sysgod]

I favour more and varied defences than simply greater hitpoints. More fighters, more turrets, etc.

Very large stations would be a hive of ship activity, and therefore have lots of reinforcements in-transit (fighter escorts for the highly important supply ships), in addition to the permanent contingent and on-call, out-of-system reinforcements.

They would also be surrounded by smaller outposts you have to fight past to get to the larger station; a large station would be able to pull rank and order any ship of the same race (or even any that are strongly allied) in the system to counter-attack.

It may also be helpful to have a way of temporarily disabling a stargate prior to making the first strike; large stations should be bad tempered and call in reinforcements (from inside and outside the system) as soon they're hit (or even when you simply enter their no-fly zone) rather than when their fighters are destroyed.

Shields are good, but there should be a trick to taking them down. Stations close to the sun might have nearby solar arrays powering the shield which you have to take out first, after destroying defence turrets. Stations further out will be dependent on generators and regular fuel supplies - the generator may be succeptable to a cyberattack, while fuel supply ships will require the shield to be deactivated to let them in, allowing you to sneak in if you're fast and haven't been detected. Or shooting said supply ships might eventually starve them out (this will of course piss them off, and they'll send fighters after you).

Of course, there's always the fun of tricking battleships into destroying stations for you

The fun comes from finding the weakness/countermeasure for every defence/weapon. Simply having more hitpoints is boring.

[SparcMan]

Like I said, I think that killing stations is not that fun because:

• It takes too long later in the game and
  There is not enough challenge other than cleaning up the reinforcements

[F50]

Like I said, I think that killing stations is not that fun because:

It takes too long later in the game and
There is not enough challenge other than cleaning up the reinforcements

I favour more and varied defences than simply greater hitpoints. More fighters, more turrets, etc.

This is already unanimously agreed. What we could use is to put forth ideas of more kinds of defenses, not saying that they are needed.

They would also be surrounded by smaller outposts you have to fight past to get to the larger station; a large station would be able to pull rank and order any ship of the same race (or even any that are strongly allied) in the system to counter-attack.

Perhaps stations may be able to call in more reinforcements than stated by max_ships, perhaps even some from in system, but that would require another variable. It is also usually not a good idea to pull other ships from in system because the majority of those ships are at another station or stalking enemy ships (such as the player). Smaller outposts wouldn't help against siege strikes, they would just be another thing to monotonously destory or trouble the defenders with saving those stations as well.

It may also be helpful to have a way of temporarily disabling a stargate prior to making the first strike; large stations should be bad tempered and call in reinforcements (from inside and outside the system) as soon they're hit (or even when you simply enter their no-fly zone) rather than when their fighters are destroyed.

Disable a stargate? if humans had the know-how to remove a hyperglyph rod, then there would be a massive scramble for making fortresses by all stargates.

Shields are good, but there should be a trick to taking them down.

Elaborate tricks are meant to be repeated very often. In the case of, say, a station, the trick would have to be very simple (easy to discover by accident) because it is repeated often and there is another, albeit time consuming, obvious alternative. So barrels of explosive Akan ammo on a Ranx Fortress would be ok, but not an inconspicuous or removed from the station target. shields that extend some ls from a station (possibly vulnerable to a type of damage such as positron) can be bypassed by attacking the station from up close.

Or shooting said supply ships might eventually starve them out

that is viable if you have a *lot* of time on your hands and 6 groups of 10 Centurions. Actually starving out an Ares Commune in the sense of food is impossible because they are meant to be self-sufficant, but certain other supplies might *eventually* shut the station down.



Another idea that I think that should be discussed is whether station should have a short range weapon that would prevent the player from sitting on a station for long, and the behavior of ships friendly to that station when you sit too close to the station to fire without chance of hitting the station (currently the simply don't shoot at all).

[sysgod]

Disable a stargate? if humans had the know-how to remove a hyperglyph rod, then there would be a massive scramble for making fortresses by all stargates.

Well, you can install the rod in Heretic, so...

But that's not what I meant.. rather some sort of exotic radiation or energy weapon that stops it connecting for 30 seconds or something.

Another idea that I think that should be discussed is whether station should have a short range weapon that would prevent the player from sitting on a station for long

EMP? When you hover over the base you hear it charge, wait to long and you get zapped and shunted off the station so the defences can shoot you.

[F50]

know-how as in know which piece to remove (and why oh why would you fiddle and risk damaging your only means of interstellar travel).

The rad weapon that you speak of would definitely not be found pre-Heritic, a stargate is meant to withstand all damage and all radiation, natural and abnormal, for thousands and tens of thousands of years.


I was thinking EMP too. It would probably disable the ship (regular EMP effect on armor) in addition to the previously mentioned effects.