hard problem item edition

[Betelgeuse]

How do we get people to use different items every time they play the game?

this is not to say just add more items and make every thing rarer. That runs into the problem of would anyone care about the difference between a a laser 2d6 and a laser 2d6+1? If there is a real difference in damage there is no choice, why choose laser when you can get a turbo laser?

So lets say make more odd weapons. The problem with that is there competition is your normal weapons. Take from example the morning star cannon. Interesting weapon and does lots of damage up close but the damage falls of extremely quickly, I admit a fun weapon to use but it doesn't compare to other weapons on the same level like particle beam, slam cannon, and dual turbo laser. (even omni turbo laser for the omni people) This was all just about weapons now think how similar the shields are and how the odd shields are even less often used.

let me restate the original problem in a different way

how do you make the game play differently (equipment being the biggest factor in this) from game to game?

[george moromisato]

Interesting topic. Could this be just an issue of balance? How much better would the morning star have to be before you started using it (instead of holding out for a slam cannon)?

Another idea is to have more combination items. What if the effectiveness of a morning star (and a slam cannon) changes depending on other items that I have? Then I might prefer one vs the other depending on what I found.

A few obvious ideas:

1. Different ship classes have different bonuses for weapon classes. Perhaps the Sapphire gives you +10% for laser weapons but the Wolfen gives you +10% for kinetic weapons.

2. The relationship between armor and shields could be similar.

3. More ways of enhancing items: If you can start with a laser cannon and enhance it all the way to an x-ray laser by adding enhancements, then you might want to stick with the laser even if you find a slam cannon.

4. Equipment sets: Bushido armor, Bushido shields, Bushido blaster. If you have all three, they all get bonuses.

5. Stations that have specific enhanced weapons for sale. Instead of a generic arms dealer that sell all kinds of weapons, how about a station that just sells laser weapons, but they are all enhanced beyond the normal lasers you find.

I'm sure all of the above have been suggested before--I'd love to hear other ideas along these lines.

[Betelgeuse]

I don't see it as much of a balance issue due to the morning star cannon is already powerful from short ranges but the other weapons are powerful from all distances so are more versatile. If you up the damage it makes it to powerful up close.

combination items is an interesting idea it may work if there was more items like lasers from several manufactures. It is easy to get a set of certain weapons and shields currently so without many more weapons and shields it wouldn't work.

more ways of enhancing items may be interesting but I am not sure what can be done in this regard.

Different ship classes wouldn't really change what you use from game to game but it would be interesting having a random bonus to certain weapons

an interesting shield might be a shield that allows all damage through but can be equipped over meteor steel armor

[Xephyr]

Of course, for the morning star cannon and others like it, it could be one of the first weapons of that level to become available.

[Periculi]

How would we go about making enhancements for set weapons and equipment?

I like the sets idea.

To your problem, Betel, I have been wondering what to do for quite a while. I would like weapons to have longer usage in the game before becoming obsolete. Varying weapon and equip builds would be great. It does sometimes seem that the game revolves around getting a fairly small set of optimal equip.

So, more optimal equip is in order!

I also wonder if upping the ranges per level might help to create more equipment. Damage ranges between levels are fairly tight. Perhaps a larger base scale between levels could help new equipment find a place in the game easier.

[OddBob]

One thing about the enhancements - what if there was a way to powerfully enhance a weapon (not necessarily just a percentage damage bonus either)
but the enhancement item would only be able to be used on a (random) certain few items, either actually selected randomly or following some kind of criteria (Bushido particle weapons of damage >50 or something). This would mean that in each game there would be a few weapons that could be made better than they "normally" would.

[Betelgeuse]

Of course, for the morning star cannon and others like it, it could be one of the first weapons of that level to become available.

Well that doesn't help the problem of getting people to use different weapons and shields. So they use it and even if it came first so? That wouldn't change the fact they can get an optimal (in there opinion) equipment. Variation between people is important but isn't the issue of the thread it is variation between games.

Damage ranges between levels are fairly tight. Perhaps a larger base scale between levels could help new equipment find a place in the game easier.

Levels vary mostly on damage type, varying by pure damage isn't a good thing do to it makes non choices (why take a laser when you have a turbo laser). Shields currently kind of have this problem, you have a shield that is always better than a different shield, manufacture sets would help that.

One idea from Oddbob in irc is have enhancements for specific items.

edit: just thought of a new benefit of manufactured sets, you would be less likely to sell everything so you can increase the chances of getting a set. That would take alot of money out of the game.

[Ttech]

As I suggested, make a way to make random weapon enhancements and types, in a ship, like elevels. etc. Also have like random omni etc. Using XML. Like the <table> tag

[OddBob]

We have been discussing item sets a little too.

Basically the idea is that items can be in many different sets - probably one ideal set that you won't get hardly one in ten games and a few lesser more random sets (can even include things like "any kinetic weapon") that are not as good.

There would need to be a lot of different sets in order to not let players use certain sets all the time; which would also require a lot of new items in order for set rarity to be guaranteed; which is okay because we also talked about giving items a manufacturer. Items can be made by the different companies that are the same or only slightly different (NAMI laser cannon, Bushido lasercannon etc) If they are the same it is okay really - it sounds bad but it's basically just flavor text except for the sets.

[Betelgeuse]

just some things that can be done with a set system that would be cool.

one item sets: basically just equipping the item will enhance the ship can be an armor or a device.
bad sets: work with a penalty instead of a bonus so you can't just throw the best weapons with the best shields
set items: Items that basically only exist for the set kind of the way the laser collimator is now.
mixed level sets: a really low level shield and a really high level weapon can give you interesting enhancements.
missing set: Kind of like the equip any laser weapon but its the opposite. Would be interesting for things like shields that become more powerful with no ammoless weapons or weapons that become more powerful with no shields.
large set: basically just a set that it would take most of your slots to use.
reactor set: A set that encourages you to use certain rectors like uses up fuel twice as slow.
meta sets: A set of high level set items that can do things to your sets like get rid of bad effects or double the bonuses.

[Periculi]

Here's a thought on equipment expansion, from when I was tinkering with expanding the equipment sets:

The problem with damage types is that they get phased out as the game progresses. Why couldn't there be Laser type weapons that function against the Iocrym and Ares? If each damage type was carried into the entire game through upgrades and higher tech versions, then there would be more equipment options.

This can provide an answer to the damage type issue as well.

It 's not to say that certain weapons might be useless against certain shields- but why not make options for all the damage types into level 10 and beyond? Why would a laser or a kinetic cannon be so limited? Make them large enough or put massively more energy into a laser beam and it's a much different beast! Or perhaps in the case of kinetic weapons- why not use some dangerous or specialty material for higher level ammo- something that has shield piercing abilities, or whatever.

The point really is this- why remove any damage type from being effective? That is why you need to go for a QAC or Lamplighter primarily- because the damage type is the most effective! Getting a broader usage out of the current damage types could lead to more options in the equipments.

And then to shields- much more variation is possible, and a reduction in efficiency for the majority would add some options there. More shields that limit weapons used, or that had weak spot(s) to certain weapon types.

To me, after looking at the xml for a few months, it seems that the shields are generally over powered, the armor is generally under powered and the weapons are a little limited in scope of damage types.

[Betelgeuse]

The problem with making all damage types viable through out the game is then the game becomes one of leveling your weapon. Your weapon would stay basically the same through out the game just getting stronger at least in the current system you are forced to get new damage types because that increases the different ways the player needs to adjust there playing even verses enemies they where just fighting. I fear that it would degrade into getting one primary weapon type and upgrading it all game and a secondary weapon type to kill things immune to the first and then the game becomes a series of easy choices (hmm do I want to do more damage )

[Periculi]

Not as a rule. Many things are possible.

[Charon Mass of Goo]

Here's a thought on equipment expansion, from when I was tinkering with expanding the equipment sets:

The problem with damage types is that they get phased out as the game progresses. Why couldn't there be Laser type weapons that function against the Iocrym and Ares? If each damage type was carried into the entire game through upgrades and higher tech versions, then there would be more equipment options.

This can provide an answer to the damage type issue as well.

It 's not to say that certain weapons might be useless against certain shields- but why not make options for all the damage types into level 10 and beyond? Why would a laser or a kinetic cannon be so limited? Make them large enough or put massively more energy into a laser beam and it's a much different beast! Or perhaps in the case of kinetic weapons- why not use some dangerous or specialty material for higher level ammo- something that has shield piercing abilities, or whatever.

The point really is this- why remove any damage type from being effective? That is why you need to go for a QAC or Lamplighter primarily- because the damage type is the most effective! Getting a broader usage out of the current damage types could lead to more options in the equipments.

And then to shields- much more variation is possible, and a reduction in efficiency for the majority would add some options there. More shields that limit weapons used, or that had weak spot(s) to certain weapon types.

To me, after looking at the xml for a few months, it seems that the shields are generally over powered, the armor is generally under powered and the weapons are a little limited in scope of damage types.

But if you "Put much more energy into a weapon" to make it effective against Immune or Resistant types of enemies to any particular damage type, would cause Larger, usually harder kinds, of enemies that AREN'T immune/resistant to that kind of damage type, but still hard to beat with said damage type, to be destroyed in one shot! Like Betel said "It just gets stronger" and "The game becomes one of leveling your weapon."
You could end up with a frigging God Weapon from a stupid Light Recoilless!

Incorporating a Non-Removable ROM, type system that changes the damage type of any given, or just one or two, weapon, might help though.

I.E.
Different types of laser damage. A rom will change the type of Laser damage that said laser weapon would deal out. E.G. Lightning Laser.
But this would also cause a need for Armor enhancements/more kinds of armor.

If you change the weapons, You need to change the shields, and the armor.
Cause and effect.

Cause

"You use a Weapon Type ROM"
"Your NotRealLaser went from Laser damage to Lighting Laser damage type"

Effect

Even if there was only 1 variation of, say, three different damage types (Laser: Lightning Laser, Kinetic: Mass Kinetic, Particle: Shard)
You would need just that many more different Armor/Shields kinds to create combinations, for EX: Lightning Laser immune, Kinetic Vulnerable. Shard Vulnerable, Mass Kinetic Resistant, Blast Immune. And the list goes on.

I guess I'm not helping too much with the question at hand. But it would also help with Balance to make 1st level weapons (laser) effective throughout the rest of the game, or even cause in imbalance of the Armor to Weapon ratio (lol), I.E. more armor types and shields than weapons, more weapons than armor types and shields, and make the player think more strategically.

-takes a deep, long, breath after saying and thinking so much-

[Petrus]

The easiest would just be to make less-used weapons cheaper, to convince players to purchase them and sink the extra funds into another ship component.

You could also add a mode where weapons can be damaged for hard core players (i.e. the ones who are going to be playing the game through many times). You might fall in love with that katana star cannon, but when someone nukes it you might have to fall back to the shtorm repeater you picked up from an outlaw turret wreck while you build up funds to purchase another big ticket weapon. With weapon damage you could also have a "susceptibility" stat, where weapons would be more or less susceptible to being damaged upon a hit. The morningstar might be a very tough weapon and hard to damage, but the omni particle cannon might be a more fragile piece of equipment.

Some weapons might extend outside the shields and be vulnerable to damage at all times, some might be able to be fired from inside the shield (such as laser cannons, which is why the solon shield stops them). There are a number of variables you could add to a weapon that can change its usefulness in certain situations and could help encourage players to vary more in what they use.

A third idea I had would be to allow the user to equip a weapon link device that would allow them to fire two weapons at the same time, with the restriction that the second weapon could have a max power usage of x mW. You could engineer the energy requirements of weapons that are rarely used so that they'd get more use as a secondary weapon than they would as a primary weapon.

Just a few thoughts.