Check out this table:
http://www.neurohack.com/public/forums/armor_table.htm
The hpBonus column shows the damage resistance for the armor for all damage types.
Unlike the damage adjustment used in the XML, this shows the resistance relative to the standard for the level. For example, a value of 50 means that the armor is 50% better than the standard armor of that level for that damage type. Similarly, -50 means that the armor is 50% worse.
When I say that the armor is n% better I mean that it takes n% more damage to hurt the armor. For example, photo-organic armor has a 50% bonus against laser. Photo-organic armor has 20 hit points, which means that it will take 30 hit points of laser damage to destroy it (50% of 20 = 10; 20 + 10 = 30).
The other interesting column is the balance column. This value is generated by an algorithm that I wrote to calculate how balanced the armor is for its level. A value of 0 means that the armor is balanced. Positive values mean that the armor is more powerful than standard; negative values mean that the armor is weaker than standard.
For every 10 points of balance, the armor is off by a level. For example, if an armor has a balance of 10, it means that it needs to be 1 level higher. A balance of 20 means that the armor needs to be 2 levels higher.
There are many other factors that go into calculating the balance, such as regeneration, mass, etc.
I think this table will help us to compare armors. For example, this algorithm clearly shows that polyceramic armor (balance = 1) is better than advanced reactive (balance = -4).
I would love to hear some feedback on the results. What balance ratings are the most inaccurate (based on your experience)? For example, the algorithm currently thinks that heavy meteorsteel is overpowered for its level--this might mean that the algorithm underestimates the drawback of interfering with shields.
What other balance ratings seem off?
Armor Balance Algorithm
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1) Light meteorsteel : I've never used it over another L4 (or L2) armor.
2) heavy meterosteel: not overpowered for an L5 armor, given that laser/kinetic damage aren't so threatening given L5 gear
3) dwarg holochroal: very strong for an L7 armor. Reflection is a big deal.
4) single-vulnerability armors (ithalium, octocarbide etc) are stronger than the algorithm suggests because the vulnerability is rather easy to eliminate -- given the choice of heavy ithalium versus diamond, I'd take the former any day.
For me, the balance of an armor type depends heavily on the prevailing damage types and shields on levels on which it's likely to be found --
utility(armor) is roughtly proportional to
E(dying|armor) = sum_{ij} P(dying|armor,damagetype_i,shieldtype_j)*
P(shieldtype_j|damagetype_i)*
P(damagetype_i)
[a full model might factor in the probability that armor enhancements are available...]
2) heavy meterosteel: not overpowered for an L5 armor, given that laser/kinetic damage aren't so threatening given L5 gear
3) dwarg holochroal: very strong for an L7 armor. Reflection is a big deal.
4) single-vulnerability armors (ithalium, octocarbide etc) are stronger than the algorithm suggests because the vulnerability is rather easy to eliminate -- given the choice of heavy ithalium versus diamond, I'd take the former any day.
For me, the balance of an armor type depends heavily on the prevailing damage types and shields on levels on which it's likely to be found --
utility(armor) is roughtly proportional to
E(dying|armor) = sum_{ij} P(dying|armor,damagetype_i,shieldtype_j)*
P(shieldtype_j|damagetype_i)*
P(damagetype_i)
[a full model might factor in the probability that armor enhancements are available...]
- Betelgeuse
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hmm degenerating trait doesn't seem to be waited heavily enough.
Armor weight seems to be more complex than you treat it in there. I treat them as weight classes rather than a continuous thing like hp or resistance. It also depends on where in the game I am later in the game with super drives I would be willing to take heaver armor classes. Early on I would never use the double titanium barricade but later in the game but later in the game I would take Dwarg holochroal armor even if they had the same hpbonuses and reflecting though they both weight about the same.
Reflecting doesn't seem to be reflected enough in it. Anything that reflects is almost as good as total immunity.
Does the formula take into account the amount of a certain damage type at the time you are expected, early in the game I would want more laser and kinetic resistance but later in the game it could have a hpbonus of 200 and I wouldn't care.
The table doesn't seem to take into account rounding errors but I am not sure how to put that in there. (in many cases you can be 10-20% difference without that being reflected in the game. )
Armor weight seems to be more complex than you treat it in there. I treat them as weight classes rather than a continuous thing like hp or resistance. It also depends on where in the game I am later in the game with super drives I would be willing to take heaver armor classes. Early on I would never use the double titanium barricade but later in the game but later in the game I would take Dwarg holochroal armor even if they had the same hpbonuses and reflecting though they both weight about the same.
Reflecting doesn't seem to be reflected enough in it. Anything that reflects is almost as good as total immunity.
Does the formula take into account the amount of a certain damage type at the time you are expected, early in the game I would want more laser and kinetic resistance but later in the game it could have a hpbonus of 200 and I wouldn't care.
The table doesn't seem to take into account rounding errors but I am not sure how to put that in there. (in many cases you can be 10-20% difference without that being reflected in the game. )
Crying is not a proper retort!
- Betelgeuse
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I want to make something clear my comments where just comparing the armors to each other. In the current game I would say that that all have negative values due to armor being bad to use for any length of time even worldplate due to you being so vulnerable to negative effects (forget about using devices that are outside and ion weapons are a death sentence). The higher hp are just so you can run away and repair, regen.
Crying is not a proper retort!
I think what's interesting here is the practicality of armors, their level and the level the player may be currently in while using a particular armor. Let me put it in an example so as to help clarify my meaning;
Normally I can obtain Duralloy armor by or around level 4 systems (via dealers/Tinkers/loot), which will hold its own until I reach level 5 systems--at this point I need to replace my armor with something that has a little more meat. Note that Duralloy is a level 6 armor, but its HP is drastically low and cannot take too much of a beating from level 5 weapons.
On the other hand, let's take Dwarg holochroal armor, a level 7 armor. Normally I can obtain this armor around level 6 systems and use it all the way to Heretic. It's got meat, it reflects particle, it reflects Ion and holds up well to thermo damage.
Both armors are great but to compare each ones lifespan, Duralloy unfortunately falls short before it should, while holochroal excels before and long after its level. And according to the armor chart, there's only a 10 point difference between the two. Albeit Duralloy is in the negative (-3) while holochroal, positive (7) and assuming this is based on resistance/vulnerable, mass and HP and excluding regen -VS- reflect, which of the two armors in this example is more practical overall?
That said, I believe that when comparing the balance ratings of armors, their given enhancements should also be factored in as well.
Normally I can obtain Duralloy armor by or around level 4 systems (via dealers/Tinkers/loot), which will hold its own until I reach level 5 systems--at this point I need to replace my armor with something that has a little more meat. Note that Duralloy is a level 6 armor, but its HP is drastically low and cannot take too much of a beating from level 5 weapons.
On the other hand, let's take Dwarg holochroal armor, a level 7 armor. Normally I can obtain this armor around level 6 systems and use it all the way to Heretic. It's got meat, it reflects particle, it reflects Ion and holds up well to thermo damage.
Both armors are great but to compare each ones lifespan, Duralloy unfortunately falls short before it should, while holochroal excels before and long after its level. And according to the armor chart, there's only a 10 point difference between the two. Albeit Duralloy is in the negative (-3) while holochroal, positive (7) and assuming this is based on resistance/vulnerable, mass and HP and excluding regen -VS- reflect, which of the two armors in this example is more practical overall?
That said, I believe that when comparing the balance ratings of armors, their given enhancements should also be factored in as well.
- digdug
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yes, praticality is very important to me also, I never install quadrocarbide because of the scarcity of enemies with positron weapons, and I'm not interested in ion resistance because i can manage to fix it with a good shield with a crystal.
let's compare level 8 armors:
P250 is super for me for the high HP (200), comparable to light ithalium in my opinion. (because with light ithalium, even if it has 160hp I can really go straight against a ranx dreadnought without trouble)
I think you should keep less weight in the algorithm for laser and kinetic with high level armors, otherwise a good armor like P250 seems very penalized in the chart, and by the time you find P250, laser and kinetic weapons are obsolete.
let's compare level 8 armors:
P250 is super for me for the high HP (200), comparable to light ithalium in my opinion. (because with light ithalium, even if it has 160hp I can really go straight against a ranx dreadnought without trouble)
I think you should keep less weight in the algorithm for laser and kinetic with high level armors, otherwise a good armor like P250 seems very penalized in the chart, and by the time you find P250, laser and kinetic weapons are obsolete.
Last edited by digdug on Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Betelgeuse
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I know this is a bit off topic but do you have a similar table for weapons? I would love to see that (as I care about them more and have more experience with them)
Crying is not a proper retort!
I second the weapons table.
Photo-organic armor is not good for level 4 armor. It is significantly better than others at its level, but underpowered for level 4 armor.
Heavy Urak could easily be level 5 (as algorithm suggests).
Dwarg Catoptric is underrated (but not level 6).
luminous armature is overrated because of unused damage types.
Worldship plate is overpowered (as algorithm suggests).
P100 hexphase is as good as light othosteel (1 ton vs 10 hp+some resistance) laser and kinetic resistance doesn't mean a thing at this level.
unrepairable neutronium armor might not be that good.
I am surprised how good your algorithm is. The main thing is that it underestimates reflection and takes into account unused or out-of-use damage types. It also may miscalculate specials like "cannot repair" or "no shields" or "photo-regen". Regular regeneration seems to be taken into account quite well though.
Photo-organic armor is not good for level 4 armor. It is significantly better than others at its level, but underpowered for level 4 armor.
Heavy Urak could easily be level 5 (as algorithm suggests).
Dwarg Catoptric is underrated (but not level 6).
luminous armature is overrated because of unused damage types.
Worldship plate is overpowered (as algorithm suggests).
P100 hexphase is as good as light othosteel (1 ton vs 10 hp+some resistance) laser and kinetic resistance doesn't mean a thing at this level.
unrepairable neutronium armor might not be that good.
I am surprised how good your algorithm is. The main thing is that it underestimates reflection and takes into account unused or out-of-use damage types. It also may miscalculate specials like "cannot repair" or "no shields" or "photo-regen". Regular regeneration seems to be taken into account quite well though.
What about weighting the number added or subtracted to the balance based on the average level of the weapons that deal that class of damage. That is, laser and kinetic would have an average level of around 3, while ion would have an average closer to 6. So the positive or negative balance factor given by a good or bad ion resistance would be double that of laser resistance.
For items like the luminous armature, you could either manually go through and weight them lower, or track each damage type by the prevalence of enemies that will deal that type of damage to the player. Basically, add "How often do I encounter this damage type" and "How helpful is it against this damage type" into the balance calculation somehow.
For items like the luminous armature, you could either manually go through and weight them lower, or track each damage type by the prevalence of enemies that will deal that type of damage to the player. Basically, add "How often do I encounter this damage type" and "How helpful is it against this damage type" into the balance calculation somehow.
It would be better to weight the resistance based on the level system you would find the item in.
Damage type separation seems to me to be:
level I-III system: Laser and kinetic. Particle less so
level IV-VI system: Particle, ion, and (as time goes on) blast.
level VII+ system: Blast, ion, and (as time goes on) positron. Thermo and plasma less so.
I am not quite sure where the system level switches are. My main hesitancy is when the Ranx and (to a lesser degree) Ares come in.
Damage type separation seems to me to be:
level I-III system: Laser and kinetic. Particle less so
level IV-VI system: Particle, ion, and (as time goes on) blast.
level VII+ system: Blast, ion, and (as time goes on) positron. Thermo and plasma less so.
I am not quite sure where the system level switches are. My main hesitancy is when the Ranx and (to a lesser degree) Ares come in.