Oracus

[digdug]

We were talking about bosses and enemies, and we noticed that now the Penitents are a bit "faceless" enemies.
It would be nice to have them a bit more story, probably around Sanctuary, because we already have some story on it here:
http://www.neurohack.com/transcendence/ ... sters.html

And right now Sanctuary feels just like any other nebula system.

[Arisaya]

“Gods! How I wanted to look away! But I saw it all, from the Ringerhomes at Saturn to the cities of Incandescent, to the ends of Jiang’s Star and beyond, and nowhere did I see a human left alive. Every trace of our lives and our works was smothered in blackness, ash, and death.

“And floating above it all, I could see the face of Domina. She too saw the lifeless void that once held our human homes. And I saw that she wept. She wept for our death and the death of all our worlds, but I looked at her face closely and I saw no sign of regret.”

[Wurmish]

“Gods! How I wanted to look away! But I saw it all, from the Ringerhomes at Saturn to the cities of Incandescent, to the ends of Jiang’s Star and beyond, and nowhere did I see a human left alive. Every trace of our lives and our works was smothered in blackness, ash, and death.

“And floating above it all, I could see the face of Domina. She too saw the lifeless void that once held our human homes. And I saw that she wept. She wept for our death and the death of all our worlds, but I looked at her face closely and I saw no sign of regret.”

If THAT'S not a sign of what might happen, then what is? My feeble interpretation skills, assuming this is accurate, probably means at least once possible course of events leads to humanity being completely decimated, likely due to the Iocrym or similar folks. Unfortunately it is probably a necessary measure based on Domina's apparent lack of regret.

Just a shot in the dark here, perhaps Domina and Oracus are the ROUGH equivalents of hyper-evolved beings representing what we consider 'good' and 'evil'. When you FINALLY reach the Core (in about 5 years time minimum based on development timeline) perhaps the epic battle between Domina and Oracus is waged through your character, on a galactic scale, where the choices you make decide the fate of the galaxy.

More shots in the dark with Heretic SPOILERS for those who haven't gotten through all of Heretic...

If I remember right, the Neurohack results in you learning that the expansion of Humanity correlates to the last Oracus outbreak. Assume my previous theory of Oracus being hyper-evolved evil is true, given Humanity's volatile nature compared to the Aliens, Oracus can easily manipulate human will to its cause of power and destruction. Perhaps, starting with the player character, s/he must find a way to help humanity overcome Oracus's tendencies, and transcend his/her humanity in order to make the correct choice (without the confusing influence of Domina and Oracus trying to tell you what to do). If that last one makes sense.

Hee hee that was fun to think about. I can't wait for the second installment of Trans when's it going to get started on anywho?

[Atarlost]

Perhaps, starting with the player character, s/he must find a way to help humanity overcome Oracus's tendencies, and transcend his/her humanity in order to make the correct choice (without the confusing influence of Domina and Oracus trying to tell you what to do). If that last one makes sense.

I hope not. That's exactly the kind of preachiness I don't want in my games.

[Wurmish]

Perhaps, starting with the player character, s/he must find a way to help humanity overcome Oracus's tendencies, and transcend his/her humanity in order to make the correct choice (without the confusing influence of Domina and Oracus trying to tell you what to do). If that last one makes sense.

I hope not. That's exactly the kind of preachiness I don't want in my games.

Well we'll have to wait and see. The whole 'overcoming the evil in oneself' is an apparent motif in games.

[george moromisato]

I hope not. That's exactly the kind of preachiness I don't want in my games.

Oh, come on, cut me some slack! In Transcendence you can:

1. Torture helpless AIs to gain information
2. Sell slaves to the black market
3. Destroy innocent stations to get their loot

I would have thought that I'd have enough cred to not be suspected of future preachiness.



One minor correction/clarification (SPOILERS):

The AI says that the *current* Oracus outbreak is happening at the same time that humans are expanding into the galaxy [Correlation, not necessarily causation. At least, it's not clear which caused what.]

And the AI also says that the last war with Oracus (1 billion years ago) began the same way [since humans were not around back then, we presume that some other species was involved.]

[Song]

George does have a point. It's hard to cry "preachiness" when in every playthrough, you kill probably several thousand people (mostly civilians), at the least.

...and "But the explosions are really pretty!" doesn't cut it as justification...for all that doesn't stop me, or anyone else.

[george moromisato]

It might be interesting, in a future version, to keep track of how many people the player kills and how many people he/she saves.

It should be possible to end the game with more people saved than killed--though probably not until after you've reached the Core, etc.

One more thing: preachiness, to me, is just another way of saying "cliched". My primary goal in Transcendence is to entertain, not to lecture.

But you can't ignore morality completely. Like many other games (GTA, Call of Duty, etc), Transcendence puts the player in morally ambiguous situations, and it's up to the player to decide how to behave. That's part of the fun of the game. And I hope that in the future I can provide a good enough pay-off.

What I definitely will NOT do is resolve the ambiguity for the player. The game will never tell you an action was morally right or morally wrong. [Individual NPCs may, of course, but you don't have to listen to them.]

[Aeonic]

I prefer to think of the galaxy as being inhabited by points. Die points! You're mine now!

[digdug]

Transcendence puts the player in morally ambiguous situations, and it's up to the player to decide how to behave. That's part of the fun of the game. And I hope that in the future I can provide a good enough pay-off. What I definitely will NOT do is resolve the ambiguity for the player. The game will never tell you an action was morally right or morally wrong. [Individual NPCs may, of course, but you don't have to listen to them.]

That's a really good thing I like in Transcendence.
I believe that all the games (where applicable) should give you moral freedom, instead they don't.

[Betelgeuse]

remember some people are repulsed by certain things that the game is asking them to accept. We don't get a voice, killing a few friendlies or selling slaves isn't a real solution. How is that a choice when if you do it you lose many services that you need to enjoy the game.

the things that bother me most in the game.

1. prophecy. I am against prophecy in general and automatically distrust any source of that prophecy. This is a problem when most of the games information is given through prophecy.

2. False and empty choices. Of course you can sell slaves but no one does except once in the learning of the game. This is like saying I will give you a dollar if you cut off your hand and saying that you where given a choice. To get the most out of the game you need to keep making the same choices every play through. Also just to be clear what shield/armor to use is a empty choice as in a given situation you will always choose the same ones "the best ones".

3. Telling and not showing. It is a limitation of the game engine that might be solved in a future version but just telling us some information makes it much less "real". The big example is domina sending you to the core. You are just told that you are going on a journey to the core. If you start off doing small jobs in the system then you had the experience I would be much more accepting of it. I know I accept much farther out things in other video games but that might be because most of those I don't expect to play many times over.

4. Religion. A common rule on many boards is no religious or political discussions as they cause things to get heated very quickly. Just to cut off a counterpoint most games do not have religion they have powers. Some of those powers are "good" or "evil" but generally you don't have to concern yourself with that.

[george moromisato]

Betelgeuse, I think you make some really good points:

1. prophecy. I am against prophecy in general and automatically distrust any source of that prophecy. This is a problem when most of the games information is given through prophecy.

I don't believe the story relies on prophecy. Just because NPCs in the game make prophecies, doesn't mean that they are right.

Furthermore, within the constrains of the game world, I think the prophesies are very logical (and don't involve any supernatural powers). At least, that is my intent.

2. False and empty choices. Of course you can sell slaves but no one does except once in the learning of the game. This is like saying I will give you a dollar if you cut off your hand and saying that you where given a choice. To get the most out of the game you need to keep making the same choices every play through. Also just to be clear what shield/armor to use is a empty choice as in a given situation you will always choose the same ones "the best ones".

This is an excellent point and I would definitely like to fix it. The major challenge is simply in creating the sheer amount of content to make the other paths viable. Yes, it would be great if the player could have an entire career in the Black Market and never interact with the Commonwealth at all, except to blow them up. I definitely want that to be the case--it's just going to take time to get there.

[p.s.: If anyone wants to start making mods to accomplish that, I think it is possible with the current code--it's just hard.]

3. Telling and not showing. It is a limitation of the game engine that might be solved in a future version but just telling us some information makes it much less "real". The big example is domina sending you to the core. You are just told that you are going on a journey to the core. If you start off doing small jobs in the system then you had the experience I would be much more accepting of it. I know I accept much farther out things in other video games but that might be because most of those I don't expect to play many times over.

This is another excellent point--again, I envision a time in which the game has more than one story. Of course it would be great if the player started out with a different backstory and had different goals. I definitely see that happening, but not until I tell this one story all the way through.

4. Religion. A common rule on many boards is no religious or political discussions as they cause things to get heated very quickly. Just to cut off a counterpoint most games do not have religion they have powers. Some of those powers are "good" or "evil" but generally you don't have to concern yourself with that.

First of all, I think you're forgetting NetHack. But beyond that, I don't think Transcendence says anything controvertial about religion (either to religious people or to atheists). I'm not even sure where Transcendence says anything at all about real religion.

And I'm certainly not trying to tell a story about religion or anti-religion or to promote or insult religions of any kind.

Domina is not God. Domina is a super-intelligent entity that has physically-possible powers (at least, physically-possible in a universe that allows for FTL travel and alien civilizations).

But more importantly (and I know we disagree about this) I like the flavor that Domina, Oracus, and the Sisters add to the game. And though I'm sure other people disagree too, I think their inclusion elevates Transcendence above the average scifi shooter.

Maybe it's just me.

[Betelgeuse]

But more importantly (and I know we disagree about this) I like the flavor that Domina, Oracus, and the Sisters add to the game. And though I'm sure other people disagree too, I think their inclusion elevates Transcendence above the average scifi shooter.

You mistake my position I don't mind Domina or Oracus, it is the Sisters I have problems with. Maybe it could be possible to have communications or whatnot with Domina that are separate from the interactions with the Sisters. The sisters could still be advantageous to go to but not the only source of Domina.

[george moromisato]

You mistake my position I don't mind Domina or Oracus, it is the Sisters I have problems with. Maybe it could be possible to have communications or whatnot with Domina that are separate from the interactions with the Sisters. The sisters could still be advantageous to go to but not the only source of Domina.

OK, that I buy 100%.

Right now, it's true that the Sisters are the only way to develop Domina powers--but I agree that there should be other ways. Over time, after I develop Part II some more, I'll add more stuff to Human Space, including different ways to gain Domina powers.

Certainly, there need to be other methods once you get out of Human Space. I haven't designed it yet, but given your input, I will make sure that getting more Domina powers outside of Human Space doesn't involve some kind of "religious" organization.

[F50]

I have no problems with the sisters as such, though I am very interested in what the Ares have to say about Domina.

Just because NPCs in the game make prophecies, doesn't mean that they are right.

True, this is highlighted by the disagreement between the Sisters and the Iocrym computer.

I don't believe the story relies on prophecy.

I'll go so far as to disagree here.

1. The player is instigated by "divine" revelation to go to the core.
2. The prophecy from Huramancara is one of the major plot points. As such it is hard to say it doesn't shape the players view of the story, even if it is hard to get to.
3. The Iocrym's computer's source of information and battle tactics: revelation from Domina.

Furthermore, within the constrains of the game world, I think the prophesies are very logical (and don't involve any supernatural powers). At least, that is my intent.

True, in a sense. I consider Domina and Oracus to be powers quite outside of human understanding of nature and capability and elevated to the standing of demigod. Perhaps these two aren't quite as powerful as the ones you'd find in, say, nethack, but still. I don't see why this would be a problem, however. Naturally, any being such as Domina and Oracus is perfectly capable of giving out prophecies, though in that case the prophecies are limited by what Domina and Oracus can foresee.