guide dang it

[Atarlost]

I think based on things said by a new player on IRC that the category 2 secrets shouldn't be secret. It's new players who need the game made easier. More experienced players if anything need it made harder.

Someone who isn't able to do the arena and doesn't know about the other money sources, even if he got a BM ID and is doing the tempus labs-corporate enclave machine shop run did not have enough money to gear up properly in St. K's until I told him about the victorian nightclub. He says he didn't find any ice farms and the other main trade routes involve them.

You can't assume everyone can go into the arena. He came back later with much better equipment and is having trouble.

In the early game money is tight for those who don't do the arena, at least potentially. Hiding money sources behind secrets makes it harder for a new player to get past the post-St. K hump unless they get lucky with the obvious money sources.

[Aeonic]

If those hornet runs prove anything its that the only point in that game that genuinely requires high-end equipment is Heretic. Anything before that is fair game for making money and getting better equipment, unless you're a freighter and you can't run from anything without a megadrive. Aside from the guilty feeling of letting the Korolov station get blown up, there's no reason why people can't go bast St. Katherine's without good equipment. Although I have to admit, my first time through those Sung Wind Slavers were pretty darn scary.

[Atarlost]

Hornet runs don't prove anything because when you reach Heretic in one you're not equipped to get past it. Every system you bypass you're farther behind the power curve and less able to get what you need to catch up. If you are still behind the power curve when you hit Heretic you lose. Once you stop killing you stop improving your gear because killing is the only source for money or new gear in the late game except mining, and mining without the equipment to survive a run in with wandering Ranx is not viable except for a very skilled player doing a challenge game.

[Aeonic]

I always found looting wrecks to be a good source of goodies, especially when you can lure enemy ships to friendly stations who will happily destroy them for you. I hope that gets fixed. Though the lack of alternative financing in late game does show that there needs to be more buy and sell options available, as well as more missions that don't rely on you being able to defeat opponents. Cargo delivery missions, for example.

Perhaps we should have a competition to see how rich people can get without buying anything after Rigel.

It doesn't really sound like you're reading my posts though. Its like you're arguing with me while at the same time agreeing with my points, in an odd misguided devil's advocate sort of way. Trying to discuss anything with you is exhausting when you aggressively attack everything I say.

[Atarlost]

Were you not proposing that players unable to afford equipment in St. K should keep going with pre-St. K equipment? That's how I read your post about hornet runs.

Since we both hope luring gets fixed it shouldn't be factored into balance. Assume anything not killed by you, your auton, or your wingman never has loot. Maybe an exception for Gaian Processors since they both attack other sovereigns and loot wrecks. Either way no free loot off of other peopl's work.

And of course evasion only ever works for the wolfen unless a pteracnium megadrive is installed, which kind of presuposes having money. Nothing else is fast enough to run from all the gunships and pre-St. K gear won't handle the gunships very well. Windslavers can outrun a stock sapphire or even one with a titan 440. Barbaries can outrun a stock sapphire and match speeds with one with a titan 440. Same for Xenophobe fighters. Anything labeled gunship can match speeds with or outrun a stock sapphire.

Maybe I shouldn't say pre St. k and post St. k. LupusNoctis was unable to scrape up enough money for a level 5 weapon until told about victorian nightclubs. That's the problem.

[F50]

2. Some secrets make the game easier for experienced players. For example, knowing about the Ice Farm/Hotel trade route makes the game easier. In general, these secrets should be discoverable and obvious once you know about it. [The Teraton fabricator fall in this category, but fails the test of being "obvious once you know about it."]

I have no problem with newbies being unable to get cash, but, IMO, this kind of secret alone should be enough to gain enough cash to keep up in the mid-game. After all, they'll run into most of them after a few games. I think we can assume that the Korolov missions and some mining is done to help keep the cashflow up.

Does blowing up a BM station fall under this category? Its pretty obvious (to me) that they would be millitary weapons dealers and not anger the CW.

What about ferrians?

Tinkers?

Are there other kinds of secrets that don't fall in these categories?

4. The category of secrets where the cause/effect relationships are not explicit once you figure it out. They should be optional and *can* make the game easier. This is a completely viable form of secret, ADOM has lots of these.

Examples include the Teraton Fabricator, and the apoatmo dream dialogue tree.

[Atarlost]

Has anyone figured out the Teraton fabricator without a spoiler?

I think that's the kind of secret we don't want for the same reason the slave trading death penalty secret is bad. It's practically a cheat code in its obscurity. Instead of being instakilled for not knowing it you get a huge advantage (being able to get nonfarmable ammo in adequate quantities) for knowing it. Advantages that huge shouldn't be handed out to people who read spoilers when they aren't realistically available to people who don't.

[Aeonic]

I still haven't figured out the fabricator, and I don't want to try, because at the moment I'm playing until I die and then starting a new game. Knowing from previous experience that fabricators will eat me, I've decided its best not to experiment.

Kind of like experimenting with Russian roulette. Not a good idea.

I will, however, happily blow them up once I get a fracture cannon.

[Arisaya]

I personally think that things should be EASIER on newbies, but the advantage of getting more info peaks and levels off as you get more and more experience and knowledge, something like the curvature of an ln(x) graph, but with a horizontal asymptote. This:
1) lures in new player with quick curve (or so it seems so far)
2) keeps them long enough to establish roots (curve is starting to level off, but not yet visibly, since it still has a pretty good rate of ascention to it)
3) keeps the challenge once they are experience (curve levels off). Getting more experience with the secrets of the game should result in new, fun, side-challenges that have a nice (though not overpowered) reward at the end, and often have a higher-than-average difficulty level when compared to the rest of the game, not cheap demi-cheat shortcuts (like fabricators or the nightclubs).

[schilcote]

I still haven't figured out the fabricator, and I don't want to try, because at the moment I'm playing until I die and then starting a new game. Knowing from previous experience that fabricators will eat me, I've decided its best not to experiment.

Kind of like experimenting with Russian roulette. Not a good idea.

I will, however, happily blow them up once I get a fracture cannon.

Yeah, I have to agree. If you guess right twice, it's pretty obvious, but before that it's near impossible to get it. I guessed right once (and one guess is slightly more obvious than the other), but it wasn't until I read a spoiler that I actually figured it out. I did manage to get a really nice shield generator from one though...

Here's a hint: It's an organic being, and it can taste what you toss into it.

[Arisaya]

I only figured out what it was once I read the xml...

[Aeonic]

The other thing I have a problem with is the whole Dvelin thing. I've never figured out what's going on there, all I see is a research lab option at the station where they tell me I have nothing they're interested in. No one ever bothers to tell me what kind of things they would be interested in, so I never have a clue what to bring to the lab.

I much prefer missions over secrets. I'd rather the research lab tells me what they need and I go get it in exchange for a reward, or to I do a mission for the Teratons in exchange for limited use of the fabricator. Missions are better than secrets as long as there are so few missions to go around. I'd rather fly through the game with a constant purpose than wander through the game trying to figure out what to do.

[Prophet]

The fabricators should be changed. I have never used them. After finding them (and being eaten) I scoured the forum and then the xml to find out what they do how to use them. I really don't use ammo weapons so I don't have a need for them.

Alot of the secrets would be more acceptable if there were more clues available. The CW bars or random data roms could drop ambiguous hints as well as more specific requests like Dvalin at the raisermesser lab.

I like the idea that a new player must play a number of games before they find everything but it should all be accessible. Experimentation is fine for things with low-medium risk but insta-death with no warning is never good.

The tinker station "custom work" is a perfect example of the ideal #2 secret (easier for experienced players) It has no risk and moderate rewards and once discovered it's rather handy. However, the armor exploit is an example of how this can go bad providing veteran players with nearly limitless cash.

[Arisaya]

I discovered the tinker thing on my first playthrough... I'm not sure how teh tinkers are a secret #2. The exploit is, but that's an exploit, and it has got to go regardless.
Also, low-risk, low-return. NOTHING should ever be low-risk, high-return (like mining currently is). That's just unbalanced, and nomatter how boring you make it seem, people will do it (cept for lazy non-miners like me).

[digdug]

The fabricators should be changed

noooo!
I love the fabricators!

You get rare ammo duplicated and you can also "transmute" shields and weapons. You can transform a weapon to a higher level weapon for more rins when you sell it to the teratons themselves

I agree that it's difficult to use, and if you don't know how it works you simply become its lunch.
However the solution should be more ingame instructions and hints, maybe with a mission or by paying (cash sink?)