A Question about the Ares Fleet

[quils3]

*Spoilers Ahead*
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

So, as some have painfully learned, the Ares Dreadnought has a plasma cannon. Now given the history of naval history, or military warfare in general, isn't it a BIG disadvantage to have to face your enemy, especially if you are a capital ship? This has always bugged me whenever I play Trans. However, the Phobos makes up for this by having the painful lightning turret, which is also limited by its capacitor. So why is the Phobos equipped with the plasma cannon when it can easily fit more lightning turrets? Isn't it better to have omnidirectional weapons for capital ships? It could sustain its heavy ion dps if it equipped more Ion turrets. If the Ares were worried about Ion resistance, couldn't they just equip the positron cannon instead of the plasma cannon?
This line of thinking also raises the question about why there aren't more omni weapons in the game and about what makes a capital ship in general.
As it is right now, the Phobos has a REALLY FAST turn rate for a capital ship and is about as heavy [combat wise] as any CSC [barring the new generation one with katanas]. Not only that, but there are more Phobos encounters [Phobii? Ares Dreadnoughts?] than CSC ones, giving the player the sense that there is a more of an Ares presence in the Outer Realm that could pretty much obliterate the CW forces.
So...
Any explanation for the above questions? .

[Ttech]

*Spoilers Ahead*
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

So, as some have painfully learned, the Ares Dreadnought has a plasma cannon. Now given the history of naval history, or military warfare in general, isn't it a BIG disadvantage to have to face your enemy, especially if you are a capital ship? This has always bugged me whenever I play Trans. However, the Phobos makes up for this by having the painful lightning turret, which is also limited by its capacitor. So why is the Phobos equipped with the plasma cannon when it can easily fit more lightning turrets? Isn't it better to have omnidirectional weapons for capital ships? It could sustain its heavy ion dps if it equipped more Ion turrets. If the Ares were worried about Ion resistance, couldn't they just equip the positron cannon instead of the plasma cannon?
This line of thinking also raises the question about why there aren't more omni weapons in the game and about what makes a capital ship in general.
As it is right now, the Phobos has a REALLY FAST turn rate for a capital ship and is about as heavy [combat wise] as any CSC [barring the new generation one with katanas]. Not only that, but there are more Phobos encounters [Phobii? Ares Dreadnoughts?] than CSC ones, giving the player the sense that there is a more of an Ares presence in the Outer Realm that could pretty much obliterate the CW forces.
So...
Any explanation for the above questions? .

I had an idea way back in .98 to make a ship have omni slots, so any weapon became made into the an omni-weapon which is much better and cooler

[Drako Slyith]

The plasma cannon is very useful in you assume that dreadnoughts are used to fight capital ships. If you watch one fight a CSC, it has no trouble hitting it, and it does something like 170 plasma damage per hit. Lightning turrets are useful, but if you have ion reflect+ on your shields or armor and a decent missile defense system, then the turrets are useful, and positron cannons are rendered useless. No missile defense turret can stop the plasma cannon in time.

Omnidirectional cannons are excellent at destroying fighters. Unfortunately, the practical application of a dreadnought is to lead a fleet or support a flag ship. Capital ships have fighters to deal with other fighters.

Also, as dreadnoughts are typically used in fleets, omnidirectional weapons are rendered as harmful as helpful. You end up hitting as many friends as enemies, whereas a strait shooter can hit a target in a mass of ships.

Last, Phobos are not used as encounters typically. They are created by Ares Shipyards and patrol widely. They are also created in a mission for a CSC.
(by the way, a CSC can take about 2 phobos one at a time before being destroyed.

[quils3]

Also, as dreadnoughts are typically used in fleets, omnidirectional weapons are rendered as harmful as helpful. You end up hitting as many friends as enemies, whereas a strait shooter can hit a target in a mass of ships.

In Trans, not all ships have noFriendlyFire="true". That means that it doesn' t matter if its omni or not.
In real life, space is pretty sparsely populated, so I imagine that fighters are going to be much smaller target than a capship. Besides, the only sure fire in war is friendly fire.
Also, who would use a omni weapon that hits FRIENDLIES?! That must be one messed up targeting computer.

Last, Phobos are not used as encounters typically. They are created by Ares Shipyards and patrol widely. They are also created in a mission for a CSC.
(by the way, a CSC can take about 2 phobos one at a time before being destroyed.

[sic]
However, since the CSC is pretty much the only CW presence in the area (at least for the player) that means that the CW pretty much lost that system if it gets blown by 2 Ares Dreadnoughts. It doesn't matter if it can take on 2 Dreads, the point is the CSC is dead.
The problem is that in any given system in the late Outer Realm, there are about 2-3 Ares shipyards. Given enough time, each shipyard would spawn at least 1 dreadnought. Since CSC encounters are pretty much limited to one per system, it means that the player would have 1 CSC to approx. 2 Ares Dreadnoughts given that there is a max 1 CSC per system and 1 Ares Dreadought per shipyard. Point is, the CW fleet is massively underrepresented if 1CSC = 2ish Ares Dreadnoughts in terms of a firefight at which that case all the Ares could potentially spam that one CSC in the system.
(I am speaking from experience, by the way. There is not one playthrough in which I have had to run away from 2-3 dreadnoughts and 1-2 Deimos to a CSC only to see the CSC blown up. Then, I feel ripped off that I thought the CW could protect me.)

I had an idea way back in .98 to make a ship have omni slots, so any weapon became made into the an omni-weapon which is much better and cooler

[sic]
That would be a nice mod. Is there some way to implement that within the current modding system of Trans, or do we have to wait for George to implement it?

[Aury]

Several things I just wanted to make note of:
1) CSC balance is likely to change in the future, especially after some revisions to CSC-related canon that Atarlost and myself came up with ("generations" of CSCs, each having a somewhat different construction & loadout, likely also resulting in different deployment stratagies)
2) Friendly fire ONLY is considered by the engine to be between two objects of the /same soverieng/ - not if they are friendly in disposition/alignment towards eachother.
3) Ares shipyards are not gauranteed to make a phobos, because they will only have a maximum of 20 ships built at once IIRC. Once they reach 20, at least one of those 20 must be killed before it will build more. Note that the initial guards are not included in this count.

[quils3]

so…
I guess the RNG hates me then.
Either way, there still needs to be a way to
A: Explain away the forward facing plasma cannon for the Phobos
[I guess the extra 170 plasma damage does matter after all, even though you have to face your opponent]
B: Have about even representation of the CW and Ares in the Outer Realm
[point in case: one CSC won’t cut it if the Ares spam all their guards on the only CW presence in the area. If Wolfy is right, then the Ares could just attack the CSC and replenish their attacking force.]
In the screen when Trans starts, the phobos is about par with both the CSC hospital and ‘normal’ CSC (the one with 4 TeV9’s) but definitely loses to a Katana CSC. (I used a fresh phobos for each CSC)
The reason why I’m bringing this up is that I guess every time I see a CSC die [I guess b/c of my bad RNG luck], I feel a bit lonelier in Trans. That and I feel very paranoid that the Ares could just come in and take over the whole system.

Gameplay- wise, I guess it makes sense for a forward-facing plasma cannon than an omni- plasma. (I can only get a Phobos to 99% damage... it would be a lot worse if I had to dodge omni plasma cannon shots too... in a Sapphire!)

[Drako Slyith]

Also, who would use a omni weapon that hits FRIENDLIES?! That must be one messed up targeting computer.

No, I mean it auto targets so if an enemy is behind an ally, it will target the enemy, but hit the ally.

In Trans, not all ships have noFriendlyFire="true". That means that it doesn' t matter if its omni or not.

exactly my point. As mentioned above, the omni hits many friends while aiming for enemies.

In real life, space is pretty sparsely populated, so I imagine that fighters are going to be much smaller target than a capship.

Once again, my point. Why would a dreadnought fire at tiny, fast moving targets when it can blast a capital ship and have sure hits with the big guns. Capital ships have fighters to deal with the small ships. Thus, an omni weapon, which is designed to be able to destroy small, fast ships, is impractical on dreadnoughts. The reality, however, is that Transcendence is 2D and the scales are functional, not practical. So the Lightning turrets are helpful for destroying the faster ships, like the player. But it needs something that can hit hard, for those lucky shots. Also, the lightning turrets are fast, but the individual shots are not that powerful.

One more point: While the Ares could replace the plasma cannon with some lightning cannons, but assume they have 3 weapon slots. That means they get one more lightning cannon, or one more positron cannon.

As for the representation, I completely agree. The Ares drastically overpower the Commonwealth. Of course, the later systems are Ares space. That is their empire.
Also, think of cost and materials. The ares are in a war. They need to fit all their other ships with weapons as well; phobos can't be everywhere. Lightning turrets cost a lot, and need a lot of power. The ares obviously can't put hyperions on all their ships.

Think of balance as well. There is no dispute that the phobos is one of the toughest if not the toughest ship besides the Iocrym command ship already. Imagine if it has even 50% accuracy with its plasma cannon. The player wouldn't stand a chance unless they have gear like Kaidun shield +150%, Lamplighter +fast, and really good armor +ion reflect.

[quils3]

No, I mean it auto targets so if an enemy is behind an ally, it will target the enemy, but hit the ally.

The problem here is that omnidirectional weapons don't work properly (as in, they keep hitting friendlies repeatedly, and not accidentally either). Gameplay- wise, an omni weapon still hits friendlies because
a: the projectile is slow (omni laser vs hornet)
b: the game does not account for friendlies behind the enemy.
As omni weapons are right now, they do not take into consideration the above two. They AIM for enemies, but it doesn't guarantee a hit (hence why omni weapons still hit friendlies).
I guess if you take into consideration that dreadnoughts are more built for destroying capital ships, the Phobos has a great balance between being able to fight off capships and fighters.

As I was browsing the wiki, I found that the Phobos is at least
(40.0 tons)* 24 -(25.0 tons)* 24 = 15*24= 360 tons.
CSC armor weight - Phobos armor weight

From this, we can know that the Phobos's hull is built using less heavy materials and is, in game, a lot faster than the CSC. I guess this shows that the Ares engineers probably knew about the facing your opponent disadvantage and built the Phobos lighter to compensate.

I guess what made me feel awkward about the Phobos was its speed and fast rotation. The problem is that if George ever implements more than 20 facings (which would require a lot of work, but still doesn't prevent it from happening) for non playerships, the Phobos would have a considerably slower turn rate, and as a result, lower accuracy with the plasma cannon. However, that would be a quick fix as the turn rate would be increased to compensate.

[Atarlost]

Let's actually look at the fleets in context. Transcendence is full of preexisting choke points. During peacetime and behind the front lines they should be swarmed by fixed defenses. TX2 will have this and it's my hope vanilla will eventually as well. Breaking through these requires something special. For the Ares that's the Phobos.

Doorknockers

The Phobos packs dual turrets at a stepped down fire rate. In terms of peak fire rate it's no better than a Deimos, but it fires twice as long wasting fewer shots on dead targets before retargeting than it would at full fire rate. They're turret busters. The Kaidun regenerates slowly, but it can absorb more punishment than anything else humanity or neohumanity can produce, giving the Phobos time to kill fixed defenses. It has the plasma cannon for smashing defending CSCs or stations. In the doorbusting role its pathetic range is irrelevant. The Phobos is very optimized for this role and in this role it makes perfect sense.

The Commonwealth has no obvious doorknocker, but the Britannia can perform the role if simultaneous gating of small ships is possible. This goes along with their use of disposable launchers and missiles. TX2 will include better CW doorknockers.

The Sung also have a doorknocker: the Dragon Slaver. Its rapid firing particle beams make as short work of turrets as anything at their tech level and the Qianlong would tear through larger defensive stations.

The Marauders have the Tripoli and the Charon Pirates their frigates. These aren't very good doorknockers, but they do at least attempt to fulfill the role with their multiple turbolasers and missiles.

The second role is the cruiser. These patrol internally and follow the doorknocker through the gate to engage their defending counterparts.

The Ares have the Deimos. Its howitzer fires fast enough to threaten capital ships and its full firerate lightning turrets are better able to quickly kill gunships than the stepped down turrets of the Phobos even though they have the same sustained firepower per turret. The howitzers also allow them to threaten stations even though they aren't the Ares primary siege unit. Phobos are also used in this role, but are, as the OP notes, not optimized for it. Their plasma archcannons are nearly useless wastes of space where in the doorknocker role they were critical against some defensive configurations.

The Commonwealth has the Aquila. They're more optimized to fighting peer units than the Deimos and this is probably why we only see them in the Antarctica mission. TX2 will, I believe, have some defensively deployed, and hopefully we will eventually see this in Vanilla.

The Sung have the Earth Slaver. Its weapon profile is almost identical to the Deimos but at a lower tech level.

The Marauder and Charon Pirate doorknockers double in this role, and it's really their primary role.

The third role is the siege ship. Only the Ares and pirates have a dedicated siege ship, but all the cruisers can perform this role, even the Ares cruiser.

The Ares siege ship is the Cometfall. I think TX2 is planning something similar for the CW. If the Commonwealth has the legal authority they could co-opt the Corporate Cruiser for this role, but the missile launcher mismatch would be a logistical headache.

The Marauders and Charon Pirates have the Drake, which they also use in a dubious cruiser role when not busy with their main role.

The fourth role is the gunship. The Ares have three of varying cost and power. The Commonwealth and Sung have two each outside CW militia forces. Gunships are used for close patrol and to protect cruisers from hostile gunships.

The Sandstorm is the basic glass cannon gunship. The Tundra is a little tougher and punches well above its weight, but is not good at fighting peers. The Chasm appears to be an overpriced boondoggle. It handles advanced armor better than the others, but since advanced armor on a target small enough to not fear micronukes is vanishingly rare outside the playership it is of dubious value.

The Centurion is designed to be hard to kill, but pays for this with pathetic offensive capabilities. The Centurion X, only seen in rogue fleet hands and Rama's, is more balanced, but I currently consider this an unsanctioned aftermarket modification. The Britannia is even tougher and its missiles give it very good damage until they run out. I'd call it the best NPC gunship in the game at this time and, as above, is actually capable of doorknocking if a wing can transit at once.

The Wind Slaver is the Sung equivalent of the Sandstorm. The Steel Slaver is the Sung equivalent of the Centurion. Both are pretty pathetic even at their tech level.

The Marauders and Charon Pirates field all sorts of gunships, most of which would be jokes if the CW actually cared about their citizens. A wing of Ronin Cs that the militia could easily spare could wipe out the Charon Pirates without breaking a sweat, and one of the Aquilas that the fleet obviously wouldn't miss as many as they have hunting the Antarctica could do the same to the Marauders with some militia support to drive off Barbaries.

The Commonwealth alone fields carriers. This reflects a lack of endurance for their gunships. The old Ronins relied heavily on missiles and would have required the first carriers to keep them resupplied. Centurions probably lack space for fuel or lack long term pilot comfort. Perhaps they don't have autopilots. Britannias have obviously limited missile supplies and would need frequent resupply even more than the old Ronins did to remain effective. Carriers used offensively would transit after the cruisers. TX2 will give the Ares a carrier, which at least Tundras need if they're to be used offensively. The excuse for not seeing them in Vanilla is the same as the excuse for only seeing Aquilas in the Antarctica mission.

There aren't currently any other complete fleets, though the Ranx will be filled out in TX2.

[quils3]

Question: What exactly are gunships used for? I need somebody to elaborate. The only thing I can think of is to get to the smaller spaces in the defensive line that the capships can't get to and have a 'tighter control', as in nothing can slip past their guard.

In Vanilla Trans, you don't get to see any choke point at all, except for maybe St. Kats (If it had some kind of defense system. Imagine it spawning 3 CSC's if a Phobos happens to be close. However, since there are sometimes Sung at the asteroid belt, I am guessing that St. Kat's is unguarded). It would be interesting to see the CW or any faction 'lock' a stargate by preventing unauthorized use or act like the Huari, place your biggest ship to patrol the entrance.

As for the sandstorm. I've been meaning to ask, but are there actually HUMANS, or at least a deviation of human (neo-human, zoanthrope?) in there? It has bad armor and doesn't even have a class I shield! (not that it would do any good). So does that mean in that if the player character could choose to join either the CW or Ares as a start instead of the normal Eridani start, the CW have at least better respect for their pilots? Even the normal Centurion has at least the R1. Unless... the sandstorm has AI, in which that case the starting Ares ship with a PILOT would be the Tundra, which has a shield (cydonian, is it?) which is just a copy of another shield.
If we look back to the past, there have been times when people have been fighting in particularly dangerous situations, but still... I don't think the sandstorms -or any gunship in fact- would make a difference in a fleet to fleet battle except for blocking the other fleet's fire. In essence, being a pilot of a gunship is pretty much suicide unless nonCritical= "general" is removed. In that case. it at least makes it so that 50 Centurions could take down a Phobos. (I tried it on the Trans opening screen, but the timer kept running out or the Phobos killed them all.)

[skaianDestiny]

The Ares use cloning and stuff, so they can probably afford to lose many more ships than the CW. St. Kat's probably has some defense force to be used against the small amount of Sung.
Gunships are the main fighters of Trans navies, similar to infantrymen and vehicles of armies. That's what I think at least.

[Drako Slyith]

Gunships are support craft. Basically, imagine you start with a fighter. You add a shield to make it survive longer, and increase the size to compensate. You then bulk up armor to protect the valuable shield generator (and the pilot too I suppose...) which increases size as well. The other side does the same, so you increase weapons and size. What you end up with is the capital ship of the fighter world.

In practical usage, they work excellently as cheap, durable field units. Fighters need a carrier, whereas many gunships are long distance. They are good as long distance scouts, or as strike ships. And filler in a fleet, being a flying gun with shields.

The ares are neo-humans. They wanted to genetically modify humans for colonization in space. Earth refused, so they moved to mars, and cloned and genetically modified themselves into a utopian society. They then attacked Earth, and were driven back where they reformed into the Ares Orthodoxy. As they are clones, I expect there are people in the sandstorms, because they would have low value on life. They can create a replacement soldier in like a week, so why bother with expensive shields, ships, and armor.

Of course, I would run from a sandstorm with a Kaidun shield, a plasma cannon, maybe a lightning turret...

[Atarlost]

There is essentially no such thing as a fighter in Transcendence. In the naval analogy fighters have the advantage of operating in three dimensions rather than two and operating in a less viscous medium. In space everything operates in 3 dimensions and the same "medium". Fighters are not fast simply by virtue of being small, they must carry proportionately larger engines to be faster. The game engine instead forces everything into 2 dimensions, still negating that advantage. Every ship that looks like a fighter is referred to as a gunship except the Hornet Battlepod and the Himal Interceptor.

As to choke points, what else do you call a stargate?

[quils3]

How about Commonwealth Star Carriers? Do they overlap with the roles: door knockers, cruisers, siege or do they fall under another class in and of themselves?
Does it depend on the ship? Star Carriers seem like it's the CW's all- purpose ship. Depending on what you give it -whether it be weapons like the katana or supporting ships like the Britannia- it could potentially become either one of the three. (I'm a bit iffy on the cruiser bit though, it would have to depend on its gunships to make up for its slow speed.)
What would a carrier look like in the game without providing the possibility of crashing or slowing it down? (I don't want dwarg raider type slowdown in this hypothetical carrier) Especially an Ares Carrier with Tundras. Too many micronukes= game slowdown. What is the amount of max ships each carrier could support without breaking the game?

[Aury]

Hey guys, FYI, TX2 = TSB (TX2 is just the old name), and also, TSB won't be finished for a while, and it will have higher system requirements for smooth gameplay.