Dead or alive paradox

[Drako Slyith]

So I was watching this science show just now talking about a paradox: There are two astronauts, both in a ship in orbit of a Black Hole. One chooses to jump into the black hole. To the person who is falling, they travel strait to the center and are ripped apart. (Why they choose to jump into the black hole I don't know, so don't ask ) But to the astronaut in the ship, he observes the theory of relativity as the person who jumped into the hole is slowed and frozen in time.

The show offered a solution that the image along the edge of the black hole expands to cover the surface. The analogy is a plane propeller, you see it as a hub while spinning but as a propeller when stationary. I have to say, however, that matter is not made of spinning vibrations. Quantum theory comes close but it doesn't say that mass expands infinitely.

What I thought of is that the light is pouring out of the object constantly. Gravity will pull the light in and almost completely stop it. Almost, but as minimal a notch as possible. It takes literally infinite time and every notch up to it because gravity is scaled as a gradient. Thus, every point in time a bit more light escapes. Therefore, the image is there forever, just dimmer.

Any thoughts?

[Prophet]

I agree that you cannot "stop" light/photons. Think of the black hole as a well, the light is travelling at the same speed (light speed, duh) but travelling up the well, thus, the outside observer would see it 'stop' it would eventually become more red shifted until the light fell into the infrared and finally microwave range, as well as being degraded by other energy sources entering the black hole.

I have to say, however, that matter is not made of spinning vibrations. Quantum theory comes close but it doesn't say that mass expands infinitely

Remember, it's not the matter that is being stretched, only the light. The astronaut has already been torn apart by the tidal gravity and disassembled into his component quantum particles, I have a book by Kip thorne who calculated the gravity differential of a human falling into a black hole. As you fall, the gravity pulls your feet stronger than your head (assuming you're falling in feet first) I don't remember the actual numbers but it would be very gruesome death.

[Drako Slyith]

Yes I know how the death works. Yeah. Not pretty. But light is not spinning or vibrating. Light behaves either as a wave or as individual photons. There is nothing for the relativity to slow down and stop, except light traveling in a strait line.

Also, following the principal that light is affected by gravity, theoretically the outside of a black hole (barely outside the event horizon) would be incredibly bright, as the light of objects falling in must inevitably eventually reach the event horizon and shoot light out in an angle so as to make it orbit. But since it does not escape, it would not be seen unless you are at the level of it. The problem with this is that it would be so much energy it would vaporize you as you went into it. The thing with black holes is there are so many factors that it's as impossible to predict as it would be to say every piece of human knowledge in one lifetime.

[Chase]

as well as being frozen in time, the force of gravity inside the black hole is so massive that the object appears to become 2D.
Then the object is then absorbed in to the absolute point of the black hole. this point is made of infinite mass and infinite density. Scientists think that this was the same thing before the big bang.

steven hawking also observed that if a ship was to somehow orbit a black hole time would slow down depending on how close the ship is to the black hole. Time can slow down time for up to 5 earth days for just one black hole day.

i will do some more reaserch and get back to you.

[Drako Slyith]

Black hole relativity can slow down time on a gradient as you approach the event horizon. Eventually, it stops. Completely. But, for the person who's time is stopped, time they perceive continues at the same rate. This is another paradox, because with time stopped around you, you would exist frozen infinitely. How would it look to you? But as I said, without ever visiting a black hole, we can't ever know exactly what happens. There will always be one factor you forgot, or one computation messed up.

[Prophet]

For time dilation of 5x you need to be travelling at ~96%c and to obtain that speed you would have to be orbiting the black hole very near the event horizon and subject to the hawking radiation and incoming plasma.

Source: Wikipedia:"Time Dilation"

[Drako Slyith]

Source: Wikipedia:"Time Dilation"

Wikipedia as in that site anyone can edit.

But yes, it is right I assume(that's one correct answer for Wikipeda )
But relativity could also be achieved by just getting near the black hole's event horizon. Therefore, you wouldn't have to go that fast. Just being near the event horizon would slow time. So you could orbit much further out, at a safe(r) distance.

[digdug]

I agree that you cannot "stop" light/photons.

there are a few examples in recent literature of condensed matter physics where the scientist "stops" photons:

ultra low temperature light freezing (around 1uK)
http://cerncourier.com/cws/article/cern/28403
http://pra.aps.org/abstract/PRA/v72/i2/e023810

at room temperature:
http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/ ... 120701.asp

these experiments are direct tests of the effects of QFT. QFT does not include gravity, so probably it's not relevant in this thread, yet there is no officially recognized quantum gravity theory.

[Drako Slyith]

I know you can stop light. If you look through a color-shifted telescope at the sun (Must be color shifted or you will be blinded) you see the stars as stretched lines as they curve around the sun. Redirecting can lead to slowing, and if something can be slowed it can be stopped.

[Atarlost]

and if something can be slowed it can be stopped.

This is not actually true. Molecular motion can be slowed but not stopped. Absolute zero is thermodynamically unreachable.

[Drako Slyith]

Slowing is a reduction of velocity. While absolute 0 may not be reachable practically, the fact that it exists at all is reasonable proof that it can be reached. Just because humans cannot reach it does not mean that it cannot be reached at all. Before the 1900's people said that it was impossible for metal to fly. Einstein himself said that black holes could not exist in our universe but we have proof that they do. Also, if you are referring to this as the fact that nothing can move faster than light due to relativity, I have to say that scientists who use the big bang theory do just that: part of the theory is that the mass is shot across the universe at super-light speeds. An unstoppable object is itself a physical impossibility. Absolute 0 means there is absolutely no energy. According to the big bang theory, before the bang there would be no energy, therefore everything would be absolute 0. As far as we know you can't reach absolute 0 through technology. But if you could create a quantum vacuum, then there would be no way for heat to be transferred and it would reach absolute 0.

[Ttech]

What I don't understand is how is it a paradox? You can be alive and dead at the same time, depending on your location (discussed above) to others you would be dead but to your self you would still be alive. At some point you would die as well. Theology issue would be what happens when you die?

[Drako Slyith]

I am one person last time I counted. The paradox is whether they are dead. They are one person. Also, if time is completely stopped around them, then in theory they never die, because they would be suspended in orbit of the black hole because time is stopped, so an instant in time to them would be literally eternity.

[Ttech]

I am one person last time I counted. The paradox is whether they are dead. They are one person. Also, if time is completely stopped around them, then in theory they never die, because they would be suspended in orbit of the black hole because time is stopped, so an instant in time to them would be literally eternity.

But time cannot be really ever stopped, not with a block hole I don't believe. But if time stopped, then would they even be aware of what was going on? I think the thing about time is more confusing then anything else.


The great Qazilions though millennia of debate and discussion, finally discovered the solution to end all problems; it went something along the lines of it is better not to think, all problems are caused by thinking, if one had no mind at all it would be preferred.. In reality this was not really possible, although their greatest scientists did try, and failed in the end they felt inclined to sit on a couch and relax attempting to never again think about anything.

[Drako Slyith]

The theory of relativity shows that when an object is subjected to either super-light speed or extreme gravity time slows then stops. Going, say 99% of the speed of light would slow time down. 100% would stop time. Black holes exert (this is mathematically proven) infinite gravity. Never mind that this would mean it extends infinitely and would be pulling absolutely everything it at the speed of light. (Think about that next time you look at the night sky ) But next to the black hole time could be stopped. Hmmm... I just thought of another paradox: math says that black holes give off gravity equal to infinity^infinity, yet I think I would know if I was inside a black hole. Unless the whole universe is inside a black hole

Isn't it wonderful how modern science has found more questions than answers?