Station Resource Generation

[Amariithynar]

i know a few items like missiles and ammunition do a slow generation over time, but it seems like none of the stations ever generate anything aside from those; No new ores from mining colonies, no new foodstuffs from ice farms, no new weapons and armor plates as the game progresses, just a flat inventory... I think that stations should be able to generate new items appropriate to their system over time. Perhaps as the order system works, have transport ships bring in new goods, and take out sold goods, while giving a Credit increase to the station's current available depending on what the ship takes back with it. Nothing massive, but small shipments in and out to blaance things around. thus a glut of say plasma torches sold at one station would slowly be removed and distributed- either actually given to other stations, or simply removed and a credit amount given to the station.

It would also be nice to see the "won't buy it because we have too much/don't want it" removed and instead a continuing reduction in price attached. When you kill a lot of an enemy and have a lot of its weapon or armor type floating around in inventory (again, ferians come to mind) it would be nice to be able to offload it all at once if you're willing to take a reduced price (30%?) for the ones past the station's usual buy limit.

[Lmoy]

I think a more dynamic economy would be interesting, but unnecessary for the core gameplay (a mod would be great though).
The regenerating ammo was implemented because many weapons had extremely limited amunition and became worthless when that ran out (Kytryn launcher), but any further modifications would have very little effect on the gameplay. And I'm sure George has more important matters to address

But if someone made a mod...

[Amariithynar]

I don't think that it would be a very small gameplay change, but rather a very large one for relatively little effort. it would bring seeming life to the various systems, by making them change, instead of stagnating.

[Resident-Pyromaniac]

Yes, In my opinion, they should regenerate their items. they already regenerate ammo at a phenominal rate; ever tried selling it to teratons? it's like, as soon as you sell one shipment of Gotha-400's and mines, the colony has a fresh load for you to buy. so awesome.

[Yama]

.. I think that stations should be able to generate new items appropriate to their system over time......

You may want consult Prophet regarding this part. One of the features of his "Merchant Emporium" station mod is level appropriate inventory that changes over time.

This station generates it's inventory according to the system level. Don't like what is in stock? Come back in a few minutes, guaranteed to be different or your money back!

http://xelerus.de/index.php?s=mod&id=477

[Amariithynar]

Just the sorta thing that I was looking for; However, it's something I'd like to see in the vanilla game, rather than just a mod.

[alterecco]

Prophet and I have both been working on this kind of mod. Separately and in collaboration. While it seems on the surface to be a small change, it actually has a huge impact. Balancing it with the vanilla gameplay would be a very big task. If you want some code to work from I think I still have it lying around.

[Amariithynar]

Heh, I specifically stated as such earlier in the thread. It's a relatively simple thing to code in comparison to say a full expansion, while it brings life and realism to the game with a large impact, aye. I still feel it should be part of the main game, not just a mod, as it adds a lot of depth to the universe and actually makes it feel like there's something going on at all times, rather than stagnant inventories of stations that never get visited in any meaningful way except by you, the pilgrim (Or a corporate).

[alterecco]

My point was more that it would be a completely different game. I don't think we will be seeing it in vanilla. However, it is really a perfect fit for a mod. One that will be hard to balance, but nevertheless, possible.

[Amariithynar]

I'm sorry, but it sounds like you disapprove of this just because you don't want to see it in vanilla, when it honestly should be on a logical level. As such, and with my own continued thinking on the matter, I heavily disagree that it will make it an entirely new game, but rather add a much needed balance to the game. After all, what it does, simplified, is make it so that station inventories change up from time to time, to give the facsimile of an actual culture cooperating with itself, rather than abandoned stations that never recieve any resource you don't give them. Either way, it makes it more realistic within the setting, but does not really change the setting very much at all beyond the scope of "you can now actually viably use merchanting to get resources". Not only that but you aren't screwed if none of the stations generate any high-level weapons or armor, because you can float in a system long enough to get something decent if the next system is too overpowering. It strikes that balance that is currently actually missing from the game between game and sim.

[Yama]

My point was more that it would be a completely different game. I don't think we will be seeing it in vanilla. However, it is really a perfect fit for a mod. One that will be hard to balance, but nevertheless, possible.

I'm sorry, but it sounds like you disapprove of this just because you don't want to see it in vanilla, when it honestly should be on a logical level. As such, and with my own continued thinking on the matter, I heavily disagree that it will make it an entirely new game, but rather add a much needed balance to the game......

One way I can see that it would significantly change the character of the game: A major increase in the incentive to backtrack, just on the chance that you might be able to improve your kit, when you hit a particularly tough spot.

As it stands now, if you've thoroughly exploited the previous systems before moving on, there's a lot less to be gained by backtracking. So you're more likely to just try to bull your way through.....

[Curudan]

When you've bought all you want from a system, and sold all you can, it is supposed to be mostly worthless to you. It's a conscious design choice. Making stations restock and consume goods would allow you to stay in a few system indefinitely; it would change the character of the game completely.

I don't really understand what you mean by "add a much needed balance to the game".

[alterecco]

I'm sorry if I was a bit brief in my dismissal of it being a good vanilla mechanic. Like Curudan and Yama both said, no backtracking is really a conscious design decision. The idea of regenerating systems has been discussed a lot previously, both on forums and irc. That does of course not mean that it should not be brought up again.

My question to you would be: Why do you not want it to be a mod? Is there some particular reason? It is really one of the types of mods that Transcendence really does best (a relatively simple total conversion that completely changes the balance).

[Amariithynar]

I have absolutely no problem with the idea becoming a mod; In fact, a proof of concept mod that displays it would be best. But in the end it is something I want to see implimented within the vanilla game.

It's not that I want it to be backtracking- After all, the goal is to push you towards game completion in the end. Thus why I said that stations would only get new resources as per their system level. For example, I'm running three games right now, two of 1.01, one of 1.05, and the same issue I'm running across with all three games as well as their predecessors is that there never is enough resources to maintain between major tiers of equipment. You can buy out a station, but it never recieves any more equipment- what about pilgrims or even just other visiting ships docking? There are some items- the rare classification- that obviously should remain rare, but otherwise each station, be it neo human or otherwise, never develops more than the inventory generated on initial visitation, minus ammo generation. Thus it never recieves more goods, nor sells/sends off surplus, and the sense of the game devolves a little, because it is stagnant- There is no semblance of life, no interaction behind the player.

It was the feeling of life I got from the Monster Hunter series that makes it so entertaining to me; Not that you go hunting, but because they look, act, almost -feel- like they could exist. They help perpetuate the suspension of disbelief. They help create the world by making everything mesh better- In fact, that undercurrent of trade and changing availability in goods is that mesh, to me. Like the people that buy from your store in Recettear- each person has preference for various types of things; The young girls have smaller wallets, mostly buying things for their mother, as presents, or books and the like. Old men buying things for their sons, or looking for relics of a youth past. Women (housewives) buy mostly common clothing, foodstuffs, decorations for the house and medicines; These little sparks of life of interaction with the game world outside the player's direct interaction that is nonetheless visible to the player are what breathes life into it.

Obviously with Trans, there is no personal interaction with other ships beyond attack-or-escort interaction; but on stations where the more social interaction types can exist, the trading of goods for others, buying a drink for a fellow spacer who seems down on his luck (I really like that in the bar), that sort of thing needs to be expanded upon to actually -show- it. I mean, you escort cargo freighters for Korolov, but aside from the small credit fee and the reputation gain, it doesn't feel like you've done anything at all. *frustrated* it's missing that feeling that... That anything happens other than at the Pilgrim's express actions. EVERYTHING hinges only on you, or the very rare occurance of two antagonistic stations spawning beside each other (Huari and Sung for example).

There is where the balance changes- That of the merchanter that doesn't just go and slaughter everything in his path, but instead travels more peacefully, dealing with threats that may come but not having to kill and salvage from every enemy station in a clean sweep before moving on, just looking for a new piece of tech. Most credit/rins earned come not from proper merchanting currently, but from being a dealer of death. There are few of the games I can think of playing where I'm not needing to instead of drifting between stations to build capital to continue along the route, upgrading my tech as I go, but instead obliterate everything in my path- and even backtrack to systems earlier in the game for resources or locations of early-spawned Ferians for their ores. I'm not saying that I want to be able to complete the game on an entirely pacifistic level, but I don't want to be forced to become a mass genocider just because of the lack of simulated life and trade that feels like it's supposed to be there, but... isn't.

...I doubt I've converyed my intentions and feelings on this matter well enough, but that's the best I can think of at the moment to be able to put into words how I feel on the subject. If you want to ask more clarification, please, ask more pointed questions so I can try and answer them best I can on that more specific point.

Edit: And on the point of backtracking to upgrade your kit: No, as each system is limited on what stations it can spawn, and those stations are limited in what items they can spawn. As such you wouldn't really be tempted to backtrack more than a system just to check the stores, as in the case of if the system you're in has none but the enemies ahead are just a bit too powerful- which I've had. There is actually a realistic reason for frontier stations/stations in the middle of a combat zone to have the deadliest and most experimental weapons; it's the same as with the US military of today. Declassified/demilitarized materials, weapons, and information are made available to the general public when they've already seen considerable use in the hands of the army, and are no longer on the cutting edge of tech. I doubt that that entire mindset/setup would change over just a few centuries.

[alterecco]

Here is some code you can work off:
http://xelerus.de/index.php?s=mod&id=449

And here is some more
Dynamic Pricing: http://paste.neurohack.com/view/Y8qr6/
Traffic Behaviour: http://paste.neurohack.com/view/YQs7L/
Galactic Traders (Reworked): http://paste.neurohack.com/view/YfNvJ/

The above three pastes are very incomplete, but they represent what Prophet and I were working upon. It is basically very much what you have been talking about, with the addition of dynamic prices based on the types of systems and proximity to resources. It is very much incomplete, but feel free to use what you want.

I still hold to the idea that this is best suited for a mod. If a mod gets built around this concept, and it turns out to have a really smooth gameplay, George might consider merging it into vanilla. But a mod is still the best place to explore the mechanics.

Have fun :)