Enhancements station

[Yugi]

Well, the idea is pretty simple - a Commonwealth or Corporate station that enhances drives, weapons, shields, reactors, etc. for a price. To prevent enhancing being too easy in the late game where most have nigh-unlimited money (which needs to be looked into, but that's for another topic), you can charge a percent of the player's total money, such as 5-10%.

There could also be options for enhancing at stations such as Bushido Merchants, Black Market/Ringer Shipyards, etc.

One thing that could also be added is something like different enhancement sizes, such as 10%, 20% (reduced by 5 from the current usual) and 30%, the cost being more or less depending on the enhancement.


EDIT: I was going to say something else too, but now I've forgotten...

[Yugi]

Yes, it could be easily modded, but i'm thinking of adding it to the game.

[Karl]

I like the idea of having some station-based enhancements. I find it more enjoyable to have some enhancements that I can just use without running out of, rather then having to ration every enhancement item that I find.

They could be fairly expensive, which would make items with comparable enhancements still valuable, and also give you more reasons to make money and give you more uses for your extra money.

Yes, it could be easily modded, but i'm thinking of adding it to the game.

I think modding it and thus having a working demonstration of it in action might make it more likely to be added to the game... maybe.

And, even if it's not added, you'll still have the mod.

[OddBob]

Perhaps a late Tinker or somesuch? (ringer Tinkers?)

To prevent enhancing being too easy in the late game where most have nigh-unlimited money (which needs to be looked into, but that's for another topic), you can charge a percent of the player's total money, such as 5-10%.

This is prone to abuse, by tying your cash up in goods and then enhancing for 5% of 100 credits. Also, you will never have to save up for an enhancement. As well, you can get infinite enhancements, or until subtract 5% gets you to 1 credit.

Instead of working around the money problem, we fix it by adding late game cash sinks like this one. ;

[goat not sheep]

Does anyone get Scammed in Transcendence? All this talk about..installing...perfectly, with no trouble.

[Yugi]

Well, we could limit the number of enhancements you can buy like the limit of orders at the Corporate Outpost.
Thhis would be a very useful cash sink - I'd say something in the area of 100k-200k per enhancement?

[Betelgeuse]

enhancements are too easy to get other ways to make a good cash sink

[Karl]

Why limit the number of enhancements you can buy? That would defeat the purpose of having an unlimited source... that is, not having to worry about how many enhancements you use, or worry about wasting an enhancement on an item type that you might not be using for very long.

As long as the enhancements are set to a high fixed price--100 thousand sounds good for some of the general ones, maybe ranging up to a million for some of more impressive ones--then they're not going to get unfairly exploited. Maybe even throw in a very basic "bargain basement" enhancement or two for a low price so that you can pretty much always get some sort of enhancement (though a sucky one) if you want to.

And, damnit, by late game you SHOULD be able to enhance your items any way you want (if you put in the effort to earn the money), with the possible exception of some rare enhancements. Why? because it's more fun to have your ship kick ass and it's more fun to be able to customize your ship exactly the way you want it.

[Burzmali]

The last thing you want to do is create an Aligned Priest, or Succubus (nethack references). Both of those are abused endlessly in that game. For those who aren't fans of nh, an Aligned Priest can improve your defense for a donation, and a Succubus can improve a number of stats for free, at little risk, if you know what you are doing.

The best bet is to allow for a series of mutually exclusive upgrades. For example, you could have an Armor Slot enhancement that could be a series of regeneration enhancements, or a series of damage reducing enhancement or a series of effects resistances, but only one series, not all of them. Likewise, a Propulsion Slot that allows for speed, manuever, or fuel use reduction. Once you make a decision, that's your decision for the rest of the game. If you don't like it, that's what Esc2y is for.

[Karl]

I don't know what an Aligned Priest is, but if I'm reading you correctly, an Aligned Priest will increase your defense by X amount each time you donate, and the defense increases are cumulative.... so, as long as you've got the donations, you can just keep increasing your defense to "infinity" or whatever it maxes out as.

Well, that's one thing that is obvious to exploit, something the breaks the game, and I'm surprised that something that blatantly obvious to exploit even made it into the game. Bad design!

However, Transcendence currently allows nothing of the sort, and no one is proposing anything of that sort. (Not in this thread, anyway.)

The best bet is to allow for a series of mutually exclusive upgrades

That's how the item upgrade system currently works. So, no worries.

Once you make a decision, that's your decision for the rest of the game.

That's stupid, and bad design, too. I'm not even sure why you brought that up anyway, as currently nothing in your ship is locked in, except the ship type itself.

When you make things like "Once you make a decision, that's your decision for the rest of the game", then isn't very easy to be stuck with a decision that you're not happy with, and the only way to fix it is to start the game over or load a save from WAAAAY back. No one likes that.

For example:

"Damn, I chose the wrong upgrade! And I can't change it. Now my ship sucks--and it is almost impossible to beat that boss because I chose the wrong upgrade--and the last 20 hours I spent playing the game are a waste. Now I have to start over from scratch. This sucks. This game sucks."

Getting stuck with decisions and not being able to change them is obnoxous and not fun. That's why it is one thing that should be avoided.

[Betelgeuse]

I disagree about permanent decisions being bad. They add replayability. Making it so a path isn't able to finish the game is bad but forcing things does lead to different gameplay than just being able to go back and get the best stuff for what you will face now.
Now that I think about it you could argue that being able to go back and change is making the game worse because you have to have the optimal things to do most things. If you couldn't go back it forces the game maker to be more fair in things considering that people will not always have the optimal equipment.

ps: don't say stupid or bad design, often times there are things that you overlook just say what is wrong with it.

[Burzmali]

I don't know what an Aligned Priest is, but if I'm reading you correctly, an Aligned Priest will increase your defense by X amount each time you donate, and the defense increases are cumulative.... so, as long as you've got the donations, you can just keep increasing your defense to "infinity" or whatever it maxes out as.

Well, that's one thing that is obvious to exploit, something the breaks the game, and I'm surprised that something that blatantly obvious to exploit even made it into the game. Bad design!

Not really, high defense isn't too helpful after a point, the problem arises from the Aligned Priest being the only "good" money sink in the game, which results in players hoarding their gold all game until they run into one. The Succubus will eventually stop giving out free bonuses (1/20 chance after each "use"), but in a game like nh, you need every edge you can get, which ironically leads to players draining a Succubus dry as soon as they can.

However, Transcendence currently allows nothing of the sort, and no one is proposing anything of that sort. (Not in this thread, anyway.)

Odd, you seem to proposing exactly that...

Why limit the number of enhancements you can buy? That would defeat the purpose of having an unlimited source...

Once you make a decision, that's your decision for the rest of the game.

That's stupid, and bad design, too. I'm not even sure why you brought that up anyway, as currently nothing in your ship is locked in, except the ship type itself.

When you make things like "Once you make a decision, that's your decision for the rest of the game", then isn't very easy to be stuck with a decision that you're not happy with, and the only way to fix it is to start the game over or load a save from WAAAAY back. No one likes that.

For example:

"Damn, I chose the wrong upgrade! And I can't change it. Now my ship sucks--and it is almost impossible to beat that boss because I chose the wrong upgrade--and the last 20 hours I spent playing the game are a waste. Now I have to start over from scratch. This sucks. This game sucks."

Getting stuck with decisions and not being able to change them is obnoxous and not fun. That's why it is one thing that should be avoided.

I've always wondered why modern games have more hand-holding that a 6th grade school dance, now I know why.

[rant]Good example, Deus Ex is widely considered one of the best FPS games ever made, and quite likely the best FPS/RPG hybrid ever. Its sequel, is largely consider to be a poisonous blight on the original. Why? Because the game can't stop holding your hand. Keeping track of 10 types of ammo too hard? Well, in DX2 you have only one type of ammo that is used by all of the weapons. Regret which upgrade path you choose? Well, now you can have all the upgrades, no need to actually make any hard decisions. You find making headshots with a sniper rifle too hard? Well, with no hit locations even if you only hit his pinky toe, he goes down. I could go on for pages if you wanted. In the end they dumbed down the game so much that a 8-year old xboxer could beat it while slurping on a juice box. How? By removing the effects of choices in the game. No choice mattered. Shot a security guard to steal his stuff? That's okay, you can just leave the level and everything will be okay.
[/rant]

As it stands now, I have no reason not to order as many field crystals as possible at corporate trading post. If I ever run into a real sticky situation, I can swap my shield enhancement back and forth on a whim. Why should I worry? At worst I can just quit and load the save.

[Karl]

Odd, you seem to proposing exactly that...

If you think that, then you need to reread what I wrote.

To rephrase things: Transcendence has no cumulative upgrades, and no one is proposing that in this thread.

modern games have more hand-holding that a 6th grade school dance...

You are very innacurate in your use of language. First of all, there's very little contact of any kind at a 6th grade dance, including hand-holding. Secondly, none of the changes you mentioned in Deux Ex 2 are "hand holding". Are they good changes or not? I don't know. Are they dumbing the game down? Maybe, but maybe they're removing needless complications. Hey, maybe they're doing both at the same time! I haven't looked into it so I don't know.

However, since I enjoy analysis, I'll give some thoughts on the theoretical level. For the ammo, having some interchangeable ammo can be good, since the game isn't supposed to be about finding ammo. However, having all guns use the same ammo can be cheesy. For the headshots, on the surface removing headshots seems to suck. However, they seem to be abused in every FPS game I've seen them in, so I can understand why they took them out. However, if they went and made all parts of the body take the same amount the damage, then that is the classic case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater (a classic design error!)... it would be better, I think, to have toned the headshot damage down instead. Of course, that wouldn't please everyone, either, but it might balance things better at least.

No choice mattered.

There's a big difference in having choices matter and having people being forever stuck with choices they are unhappy with. You should be able to see that. Being able to change something later on doesn't mean that your choice doesn't matter... it might be very difficult to change that choice. For instance, if it costs a million credits or a half hour of gameplay to change that choice, then, yes, that choice matters bigtime.

As it stands now, I have no reason not to order as many field crystals as possible at corporate trading post.

Well, you'd have to have the money to pay for them, first of all. Your example is a poor one.

[Burzmali]

Secondly, none of the changes you mentioned in Deux Ex 2 are "hand holding". Are they good changes or not? I don't know. Are they dumbing the game down? Maybe, but maybe they're removing needless complications. Hey, maybe they're doing both at the same time! I haven't looked into it so I don't know.

I've always defined hand-holding as increasing a new player's chance to win at the expensive a seasoned player's enjoyment.

[rant]Another example is TES4: Oblivion. Not only did they make all "plot" characters invincible, but they included a "helpful" pointer that leads you by the nose to every destination. Add to that the "balancing" system that gives bandits equipment worth more than the Imperial Treasury and you end up with yet another game that gets panned by veterans of the rest of the series (Daggerfall, Morrowind) because the game had to be winable by an 8-year old xboxer (juice box optional).[/rant]

Snipped analysis

Nice try I suppose... Actually, the changes were made due to a limitation of the user interface. See, xboxers don't have mice, and xbox can't handle hit location to save its life. But hey, PC gamers got to revel in the 640x480 optimized textures

No choice mattered.

There's a big difference in having choices matter and having people being forever stuck with choices they are unhappy with. You should be able to see that. Being able to change something later on doesn't mean that your choice doesn't matter... it might be very difficult to change that choice. For instance, if it costs a million credits or a half hour of gameplay to change that choice, then, yes, that choice matters bigtime.

Last time I checked, playing a single game of Transcendence wasn't a major time investment. If you do something stupid, like, I don't know, get yourself irradiated and fly through a jumpgate with 5 seconds left, you just restart and try again. Remember, this game was inspired by Nethack. Nethack, the game that is 2 key strokes away from killing your character at all times. Nethack, the game that has countless ways to kill your character instantly, without recourse, and that only 1 in maybe 20 players have ever beaten.

As it stands now, I have no reason not to order as many field crystals as possible at corporate trading post.

Well, you'd have to have the money to pay for them, first of all. Your example is a poor one.

They are a drop in the bucket by the time you get to that point in the game. By then you are looking to get rid of your cash and get all the rins you can.

MAYBE, I could see such a system if the cost per upgrade (not per level) increased expontially, i.e. 100k, 200k, 400k, 800k ... while the enhancements per level are geometric, say 5%, 15%, and 30% for a given attribute. At least that forces a choice between breadth or depth. Encouraging Final Fantasy style power leveling is not an endearing trait in games.