Hard(er) Science Total Conversion

[OddBob]

I've been toying with an idea for a while about using Transcendence to create a total conversion (or at least a "heavily modified version") based as firmly as possible in realism and hard science fiction. Here is your handy guide to what hard science fiction is and is not: http://www.kheper.net/topics/scifi/grading.html

I don't know where what I'm proposing fits on this scale, save it be on the hard end.

I was wondering if anyone else would be interested in helping out (although I will probably do it anyway if no one steps up). Here's the deal so far:

By necessity, I can't address everything at the same time, you may have to read this all the way through before parts of it make sense.

At the least I aim to remove:
1. Shields
2. High acceleration
3. Possibly a few weapons (most of the weapons will be removed just because they don't fit, this will be discussed later)
4. FTL travel (sort of)

1. Shields will be replaced with ablative/reactive type armor, and except in a very few cases, will not regenerate. You will use armor patches (actually superconducting coils) to repair your "shields".

2. I figured out today that even at 50 or more G's, you're still talking hours of game-time for any significant speeds. However, I also aim to get rid of FTL, and the whole game will take place in one star system, with each 'system' being instead centered around a planet. [From this point forward, a "star system" is a solar system, but a "system" is what you see on one press of the "M" key ingame, a planetary system]

You will still use stargates or something that you fly over and activate to move from one planet to the next, but this is unavoidable due to the infeasibility of one huge system.

Now that the game has been scaled up, all distances are much smaller, and thus the speeds are lower. 100 in the XML is no longer the speed of light. This will mean that lasers will not travel at their proper speed anymore. This can be either ignored, or they can be made invisible projectiles with a speed of more than 100.

I also plan to reduce ship speeds and graphic sizes to about half. I think this will simulate longer ranged battles and also put more of an emphasis on maneuvering and tactics.

3. Weapons are to be thought up or kept/removed as necessary. More later.

4. Explained as part of 2. Bsically, each "system" will have a planet or significant object in the center, probably at least the size of suns in current Trascendence, more for gasgiants. There will be several stargates leading out to various parts of the system. They may go directly to other planets, or they may lead through an empty "interplanetary space" zone first.

Another thing I will address is that asteroid spacing will have to be increased. Asteroids are very far apart from each other, you would not even be able to see one from another. (actually, Trancendence is good about this, there are too few asteroids in fact!...but the scale change may create a problem)

In this mod, there are no fighters. Combat is with opponents which are as good or better equipped than you, and there are far less of them (but you will spend much more time on each individual fight).

The reasoning for no fighters (a fighter being a small craft which relies on a larger carrier or station for refuel, re-arm, etc.) I've explained in detail elsewhere, I will again if required, but basically, in space, large craft can travel as fast as small ones (yes, they do maneuver slower), and you can cram five times as many weapons onto a ship in the space it would take to carry fihters with only double the firepower.

There will be autons, but they will be more like expendable attack drones available in large numbers.

Weapons types:

Missiles: guided. Acceleration up to 15-20 G (or just 'fast' if unable/too lazy to figure it out) they are the most common weapon.

types: nuclear, fragmenting (kinetic or blast), kinetic (no warhead). maybe antimatter, but rare. almost zero energy cost, but generally limited ammo.

Mass drivers: Slow traveling (compared to missiles and lasers, around 20 or 30 speed max, some are less than 10), but pack a punch. Batteries of small guns or single really big ones. Not self propelled, so very high in energy cost.

Directed energy: Lasers. x-ray, gamma-ray, any ray that works. Visible light lasers are easily blocked (even a gas cloud will do it) , but some ships will have a comm/mining laser they can use in defense if necessary.
Particle beams are just barely coming into play. Mostly because we don't want to waste the PBW graphics. EXTREMELY HIGH in energy cost.

Defenses: Chaff, gas/ice clouds, inflatable walls, etc. , possibly all hooked to ICX. Normal ICX (kinetic and laser, with fields of fire creating weak spots to encourage flanking). Instant minefields.

Ship types: No fighters. Some autons (probably launched by device, used as disposable attack drones), probably with missiles (see about ramming; possibly simulate with a very short range weapon that destroys auton in blast)

Other: Orion-style drive, provide a lot of accel fast, as well as damage or missile blocking. Ships will accelerate slowly, so this will come in handy. Requires special aft armor.



I am working on graphics
( Sneak peek) but Transcendence graphics will be used more likely. [/url]

[Betelgeuse]

sounds interesting will you try to conserve momentum with the stargates? (is when you enter a system from a certain gate you are going what the other place was going not this planet system)
also how are you going to solve the instant stop of docking?

[OddBob]

sounds interesting will you try to conserve momentum with the stargates? (is when you enter a system from a certain gate you are going what the other place was going not this planet system)

I'm not sure exactly what you mean...do you mean that if you enter a stargate going at a certain speed you'll exit at the same speed? That'd be nice, but I have no clue how to do it (not even in theory).

As for docking, this is basically an unavoidable thing, no? If you're referring to it being a cheap way to stop your ship, since there is lower acceleration, that is.
The AI can't handle an acceleration that is too low compared to max speed (because it thrusts all the time), so I may have to compromise.

I was thinking that most ships would be no more than 10 or so max speed. I don't really see a reason to have any different ones for player ships, but slowly accelerating AI ships will need a lower max speed if they need to fight effectively.

Stuff I forgot: combat. Initially, I'm just going to have a bunch of system yuo can wander around in, and enemies to fight. Maybe some trading or missions will happen later, but I may not get that far.

Most weapons will reload slowly and do a lot of damage; most missiles are near one-shot kill if they hit right. However, defenses are thick (most ships will have many different types of defenses) and most projectiles are slow, so getting that hit is the hard part.

[Betelgeuse]

well no to planets are going the same speed some are even going in opposite directions so was wondering if you where going to simulate that. (what direction and magnitude would be known for a certain gate)
only thing stopping it off the top of my head is I don't know how to set the direction and magnitude for the velocity of the ship (or even to change it at all)

[Sponge]

Sounds very cool. I really like the idea of no shields- plating should be a lot stronger than it is now. This would be very fun to play, and I think you're on the right track. I'd be willing to help out if you'd like.

[OddBob]

well no to planets are going the same speed some are even going in opposite directions so was wondering if you where going to simulate that.

Probably not, I don't really know how...but if you find a way I'd be happy to hear about it.

Sounds very cool. I really like the idea of no shields- plating should be a lot stronger than it is now. This would be very fun to play, and I think you're on the right track. I'd be willing to help out if you'd like.

Cool, I don't know exactly what I need yet, but I'll just post in this thread when I do.

I forgot this the first time around: A secondary objective here is to create a bare-bones XML with nothing but the planets and stars, one system and a ship to use as a base for future total conversions. This will be a lot easier with the new modular XML structure.

[Burzmali]

Let me know if you need any help, until the next version comes out my current mods are on hold.

[dvlenk6]

I'll make large-sized planet graphics for you, unless you want to do that yourself.
I could make some cruiser-type ships too.

[Sponge]

What are you thinking about scale? Obviously it couldn't be perfect, because planets would have to be HUGE, and stars even bigger, and that would make for a very large "no-hit" zone, but I think this is a good opportunity to scale some things up.

[OddBob]

Dvlenk: I was planning on doing planets myself: I need some practice in the planet department.

However, cruisers are just fine. The current style is purely functional, with guns and radar dishes, pipes and fuel tanks sticking out everywhere, but feel free to elaborate. The only thing I want to stay away from is random wings and fins or excessive streamlining.

Here's the other two ships (WIP, especially textures) Sorry about the odd angles and lighting, these are renders I have laying around...no access to the real files ATM.

http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... askhn2.jpg
http://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hmsevje9.jpg

http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... derdi5.png

Sponge: I'm going to figure out how big they would be in relation to the new scale, if it;s not ridiculous. There will only be one star, perhaps two if it's a binary system (although traveling between the two stars is a large journey) and it will be huge (not able to fit on one screen), and will kill you if you even approach it. (I'm using a system like the particles in Heretic, hopefully)

The planets, I'm hoping an earth size one will be a large portion of one screen, and gas giants much larger. Perhaps a gas giant will also hurt you if you get too close.

[Karl]

The current style is purely functional, with guns and radar dishes, pipes and fuel tanks sticking out everywhere, but feel free to elaborate.

If a ship is meant to be armored, it probably wouldn't have a ton of crap sticking out of it (too many vulnerable parts). But I suppose peacetime ships could look like that.

[OddBob]

If a ship is meant to be armored, it probably wouldn't have a ton of crap sticking out of it (too many vulnerable parts). But I suppose peacetime ships could look like that.

I am sort of torn here. To be entirely realistic, many ships may not even bother with a lot of armor - it's just extra mass. You don't really stop a half ton chunk of metal going 400 km per sec except by not being where it's aiming; most of the weapons involved are rather powerful, so armor plating like a tank is sort of replaced with things like the ICX and countermeasures, or just really big engines on all sides to make your flight path unpredictable (unfortunately not available in Transcendence)

BUT the actually gameplay can't really be like this, you'll have to take hits (it would be kind of boring to finish a game with a shiny new ship that's only ever had to refill countermeasures, plus I believe it will be impossible to avoid getting hit: you don't have any side thrusters and the scale is actually smaller than 'reality'.

So there is armor, I have quite a few extra armor plates on the ships, especially around the exposed hydraulic system that moves the guns. Mostly it's towards the front to protect against (it's exposed because it looks good to create the inner workings and partially hide them- good tip for increasing the complexity without a huge poly count or work - not that I care about poly count because these are static renders).

[Karl]

You're assuming that offensive weapons would have the edge over armor. You can't be sure of that--no one can precisely predict what future tech is going to be. Maybe the armor of that future time is enough to resist the weapons of that time.

Offensive and defensive tech have been in a race throughout history... with heavy plate armor stopping bullets then armor piercing shells pentrating metal plate and then reactive armor and second-shell cages stopping that. Right now, for instance, the M1-Abrams tank is practically invincible on the battlefield thanks in large part to it's armor (almost none have been lost in all of the conflicts that it's been in), but the relatively light-weight countermeasures needed to protect helecopters aren't completely there yet, so combat helecopters are dropping like flies (relative to other types of vehicles, at least).

I suppose you could assume one of many tech balances between offensive and depensive tech and have it still be "realistic". Heck, if you want countermeasures, maybe the armor plating itself is assumed to include countermeasures--which go off to reduce the damage of every hit. Today's reactive armor already sort of works like that.

[Blinzler]

To add my 5 cents...

I think armor has not just value as a measure to stop incoming projectiles etc. but maybe even more so value as a measure to deflect such things.
If I remember it rightly one of the big values of the russian T-34 was valued so greatly because it's tower armor was designed in such a way that it deflected incomming shells.

But alternative counter-measures are always a nice change from the mundane.
One thing - for me - with a little wow-effect was in Final Fantasy the Movie when the soldiers drop from their ship in freefall and shortly before impact they fire some kind of shells that release a giant gel/like bubble. The soldiers fall into this and shortly after the stuff harmlessly dissolves into gas form and floats off.
I'm sure the idea could be used for stopping of at least slowing down inbound projectiles.
I think in I, Robot it was were they had a similar system in the car-crash, where the whole inside fills up with an instant foam that almost instantly hardens, too. Or was that a movie with Sylvester Stallone.
Either way the impact energy get's reduced and lessens it's effects, e.g. breaking your neck, greatly.

On a side note: Seeing how I managed it again to end up dead in space for lack of fuel - I'd like a solar sail to go with my emergency solar panels to survive the trip to the gas station next time.
And yes, I'm aware how stupid it was to die like that.

[OddBob]

You're assuming that offensive weapons would have the edge over armor. You can't be sure of that--no one can precisely predict what future tech is going to be.

Anything sufficiently advanced as to be infathomable or unconceivable by today's standards is out of the scope of this mod. I can't see any material, except in very very large amounts, reliably (meaning more than once) stopping the kind of projectiles we're talking about here.

I already have ERA, it's replacing shields, although in it is more akin to active protection like ARENA
except more focused.

ERA will probably remain as armor, although there will be other types (including straight up steel plates, for gunships on a budget )

Here are the current defenses I have in mind:


Shield replacements: Active Protection System (APS). This is one of the shield replacements. There are several grades. When you "recharge" your shields you are refilling/replacing the ammunition it fires. They do not stop directed energy weapons like lasers, and are depleted fairly quickly.
Another shield replacement is just armor plates (probably with ERA or some similar devices but not if you're cheap) separated from the hull., intended to be destroyed on impact. These will go even faster than an APS but they stop everything. I'm not sure if should be able to repair these in the field, or whether you just buy new ones...

Non-shield APS: This puts something between you and the enemy, or defeats projectiles at longer ranges (and thus may miss, shield-APS is assumed to work the percent of the time that it takes off the damage) Fired from an ICX type device with limited ammo. The main use is gas or ice clouds to defeat lasers, but in Transcendence, it will stop all projectiles. I don't really know what to do about that.

Also includes micronuke-type shockwave weapons that are fired and detonate as soon as they clear safe range of your ship, to clear all incoming projectiles. Probably mounted as a weapon since there will be probably only one shot.

Autons: There will be aegis type autons mounted with a combination of all the other defenses.

Any other ideas are appreciated.

I'm starting on clearing out the XML today.