Need option to tell wingmen to get the F--k away from me!

[Burzmali]

Not to sound bitter but after losing my ship that I probably would have got my first win in 0.98a (no rez) because I couldn't ditch those friggin' morons long enough to wipe out the Ares convoy in one of the CSC missions. Honestly, those guys are more trouble than they are help! Normally, I would let them get fried (or shoot them myself) but not this time as if I lose them all, I lose the mission. Please, when saddling the player with wingmen, give us the option to tell them to go practice flying in formation somewhere else, it's not like their particle weapons are helping or anything.

[Fossaman]

Seconded, PLEASE. They're irritating. I usually tell them to break and attack, but they're still in the way. Same problem with autons and zoanthropes; usually I end up shooting them myself.

[Sponge]

Bravo. I hate loosing wingmen in any situation, and I find them to be entirely usless. If I could store them all in one spot, though, getting a nice sized fleet would actually make them worth while.

[george moromisato]

Yeah, I agree. I will add an option to get the wingmen to wait in some safe place.

But I would also like to make the wingmen more useful. At minimum I guess I should up their armor/shields.

Are there concrete AI improvements that might help? [Note: I'm asking for specific algorithms, such as "retreat when shields are down" not general platitudes like "make them fight better"]

[Sponge]

The main problem with wingmen is that they quickly become useless. They may be good in the system you get them in, and one or two after that, but anything more and they just take hits.

Fixing this seems like a complicated issue, and the only way I could see would be to have some way of upgrading them. One method would be giving them a very advanced AI package. Salvage items, sell them at stations when you dock, buy new gear depending on the system you are in and how much cash they have. This would be really cool, but I don't think it's practical. An easier solution would be to let them serve as mules. They can carry some stuff (perhaps even loot wrecks you pass by with some Salvager Nomad logic), and you can dock with them and give them new items to install.

Even this method is trickier than it first seems. You would have to account for how much power your wingman can generate, and how much cargo space he has. It would all have to be done through dockscreens, and could make for a pretty cool addition. For instance, you dock with your wingman, select a 'Give Item' option, and give it a generator. It replies, "Sorry, boss. My reactor isn't big enough!"

Adding some method to upgrade wingmen is the only thing that would increase their usefulness, other than just making them more powerful by default. Autons shouldn't be able to upgrade, though. If you loose an auton, you just go buy a new one.

As far as AI options go, I think they need some combat styles. Instead of being the center of attention as they are now, perhaps a few different attack patterns could be added so the player could choose which one to use. A sniping AI would stay just in weapons range, blasting at an enemy whenever it gets a clean shot. A more defensive style could simply stay back, circle the opponent a little, and let you take most of the hits. A more aggressive style could function much as it does now, where the wingman doesn't care how much he gets hit, and will fight to the death if need be.

However, the main issue of this thread still stands. If wingmen/autons get only one improvement, I would hope for a "Stay Here" order.

[Frits]

I know what you mean, try mining while you have Zoantropes circling around you. I remember a situation tho with autons which worked out well, i think i had a mule and one armed with a laser and another with EMP and made them wait a little off the gate, not far from the sun (where i positioned the mule) while i was cleaning out the system. They harrassed all the spawning windslavers killing half a dozen in the process, they saved me some time, yielded loot, and only one died.
Also from experience when i have zoanthropes following me at a respectable distance and some ships come from the gate and i can target them with a turretted weapon i'll have them killed in no time by making a semi-circular movement to the center. Where i do the initial shooting and the zoanthropes kill the last ones off as i hold fire. At that point they are in a dogfight and i am likely to hit something green at very poor odds, targetting doesn't help unless i hold fire for a second and wait for the red ship to fly out of the melee, which btw rarely happens cos it's destroyed.

So if i can make wingmen keep distance or hold position they can control an area and i can work out tactics to make use of them.

[Lord Trogg]

Wingmen that you keep such as Rama should be upgradeable. You could give them better armour, weapons, shields etc when you feel that they need an upgrade. I also find wingmen on CSC missions to be rather pointless. The only mission that I ever use them on is for escorting the big long refugee convoy through the system. On all other missions I try to finnish the job before they appear on the scene (gotta love the jumpdrive). For harder missions you should get more powerful wingmen. So against a Phobos Dreadnought you'd have wingmen that will last more than 2 seconds against the lightning turret and plasma cannon. It would be interesting if those military weapons such as the ion flame cannon were actually used by a ship other than your own. Also for the really hard missions you might get wingmen with experimental or cutting edge technology.

[dvlenk6]

I've actually found that the Dwarg Behemoths are very useful wingmen. They will go fight on there own, attack bases, etc. They have strong enough weapons to do real damage and they can take a pounding before going down. I had one with me for many systems (there were 3 others too), he lasted until 2 systems before Heretic. I was able to see once, on the edge of the screen, the Behemoth place the killing shot on a Ranx dreadnaught while I was killing off the gunship reinforcements.

The reason I like the Behemoths is that they aren't under your control; and they aren't fast enough to keep up with you; but, they are coming along behind you. If you have to retreat, then there they are. They are big enough to duck behind for cover also. If they could regen or you had somehow the ability to repair their armor, they could go with you to Heretic and beyond (but I think you'd have to be able to tell them to stay away from the Iocrym Command Ship while you dealt with it.)
- - - - -
I did experiments with wingmen before. I found that by far the biggest single thing to do to make them live longer is have a Patch Spider on them (that was when the spider was a slot and couldn't be damaged except by Ventari); if their armor is at least decent. Shield was second biggest factor. Speed was the third, slower lived longer. The ones that could keep up didn't last long, even with much more powerful armor and shields

For usefulness, it seemed to me that having a slow heavy weapon was more useful than a fast lighter one (the AI is a pretty good shot and doesn't miss very often). I had one using a pair of Mark III Howitzers that was doing some nice damage. Missiles were good too; but I couldn't figure out how to keep them from running out. Missile launching ships were very good for temporary wingmen.

[hookoa]

I think one thing that would make wingmen immensly more useful is to

Give wingmen a standoff order which makes them circle at a distance approx edge or screen or a bit further. They'll shoot in, and the AI will avoid shooting you, but they won't fly between your gun barrel and the enermy. This would make zoanthropes useful and centurions a help instead of hinderance in battle.

I've noticed that Ranx and Ventari do this. Is this something possible to mod in the current version? If so, I think someone with skill should mod it and try it out.

Also mentioned by Lord Trogg is that Rama should be upgraded. I don't think this is a good idea. Rama himself hints that his destiny is to die in your service, and although I do feel sad when that last positron round punches through his armor, I also feel that this is a plus for the game.

[dvlenk6]

I went and looked it up:
This Ship:

Code: Select all

<ShipClass UNID="&scMariusAtonement;"
	manufacturer=""
	class=""
	type="Marius' gunship"
	score="1000"
	techOrder="mech"
	mass="150"
	cargoSpace="75"
	thrust="400"
	maneuver="3"
	maxSpeed="20"
	leavesWreck="50">
	<Armor>
		<ArmorSection start="315" span="90" armorID="&itOctoCarbideArmor;" areaSet="0,2" />
		<ArmorSection start="225" span="90" armorID="&itOctoCarbideArmor;" areaSet="3,4" />
		<ArmorSection start="135" span="90" armorID="&itOctoCarbideArmor;" areaSet="1,6" />
		<ArmorSection start="45"  span="90" armorID="&itOctoCarbideArmor;" areaSet="7,13" />
	</Armor>
	<Devices>
		<Device deviceID="&itNephrenX1;"/>
		<Device deviceID="&itMarkIIIHowitzer;" minFireArc="335" maxFireArc="5" posRadius="26" posAngle="350" secondaryWeapon="true"/>
		<Device deviceID="&itMarkIIIHowitzer;" minFireArc="355" maxFireArc="25" posRadius="26" posAngle="10" secondaryWeapon="true"/>
		<Device deviceID="&itMissileDefense;" omnidirectional="true"/>
	</Devices>
...

Didn't last nearly as long as this one:

Code: Select all

<ShipClass UNID="&scMariusAtonement;"
	manufacturer=""
	class=""
	type="Marius' gunship"
	score="1000"
	techOrder="mech"
	mass="150"
	cargoSpace="75"
	thrust="400"
	maneuver="3"
	maxSpeed="14"
	leavesWreck="50">
	<Armor>
		<ArmorSection start="315" span="90" armorID="&itQuadroCarbideArmor;" areaSet="0,2" />
		<ArmorSection start="225" span="90" armorID="&itQuadroCarbideArmor;" areaSet="3,4" />
		<ArmorSection start="135" span="90" armorID="&itQuadroCarbideArmor;" areaSet="1,6" />
		<ArmorSection start="45"  span="90" armorID="&itQuadroCarbideArmor;" areaSet="7,13" />
	</Armor>
	<Devices>
		<Device deviceID="&itYoroiMX;"/>
		<Device deviceID="&itMarkIIIHowitzer;" minFireArc="335" maxFireArc="5" posRadius="26" posAngle="350" secondaryWeapon="true"/>
		<Device deviceID="&itMarkIIIHowitzer;" minFireArc="355" maxFireArc="25" posRadius="26" posAngle="10" secondaryWeapon="true"/>
		<Device deviceID="&itPatchSpider;"/>
	</Devices>
...

Everything comes after the player ship. Even with a NephrenX1 and Octocarbide armors, the wingman won't live if he is right there when the battles begin all the time. He gets damaged (unless you would make him invulnerable) and I couldn't make him repair the damage. W/ the patch spider, all is well if he lives. So...
Yeah, retreat when shield goes down would be a huge upgrade for them. But the patch might get damaged.

Being slower left him out of the initial onslaught a lot of the times; but he'd help clean up. You still had to baby him along; but I had the second ship with me to Heretic twice. Didn't live through the Iocrym either time though.

[Frits]

Remarkable that slow wingmen are more use than fast ones. I agree, as a player. Possibly this is to do with human minds obviously being far to slow to deal with animals on earth, let alone spaceships moving at a fraction of the speed of light.
Like a caveman is no match for your average bear but armored with a big bone or shield and armed with a spear he has a chance. But of course fear is a major factor in these type of fights, and pain too so it would likely end in a draw.. but back on topic

If there is a group of wingmen they should not act individually, not react to a hit being taken but rather choose one target where the target can consist of one ship or a group of the same ships.
Of course there is always a weak point like if they split up to snipe targets from a distance they are more likely to miss or hit the playership which can make unpredictable (stupid) moves. If on the other hand they act in close formation they are quite vulnerable to for instance a fragmentationweapon like the Kiloton cannon. The ICX is a reasonable defense against this weapon but pricy and uses up a weaponslot.

If the group acting in close formation responds to fear (ie individual ship shields being down hence a single ship being more vulnerable) they should calculate the fearfactor as a group and not retreat until a critical point is reached. This leads me back to the top of this post and Dvlenk's remark, a single ship seems more useful. And if this ship is not slow and strong i as a human will mess up the battle by destroying my own wingmen. Cos i as a human am too slow which the caveman already understood, he spent (a relatively enormous amount of) time preparing for the fight by making a spear and finding some means of defense.

[evilbob]

Perhaps a system similar to Warzone 2100?
In said game, it was possible to give AI vehicles specific "states"- fire distance and "retreat at"- there was "attack at- long/short/optimum range" and "retreat at- medum/heavy damage/ do or die!" This was useful since weapons varied from flamethrowers to guided missile artillery.

[Burzmali]

Maybe give the player the option to set one of five behaviors for wingmen, especially the wingmen for the CSC missions.

1. Form Up - Standard configuration like it is now, good for traveling and blocking shots in defensive missions.
2. Defend Target - Ships circle target at a reasonable distance and fire at any attackers.
3. Attack Target - Ships attack designated ship until destroyed and then return to previous condition
4. Engage Defensively - Ships targets that attack them
5. Fire at Will - Ships attack nearest hostiles
6. Change Stance - see below

Stances - In addition behaviors 3-5 are influenced by the ship's stance,

1. Aggressive - Ships attack without retreating (Urak behavior)
2. Neutral - Ships attack and retreat when shields fail (default)
3. Defensive - Ships attack from max distance (Missileship behavior)
4. Hold Position - Ships hold position, still attacking as possible

[FAD]

Here's a quickie solution until the wingman code has been updated...

Assuming by the time you enter CSC missions that you have a Targeting ROM installed, when accepting a mission and you get the 6-8 Centurian wingmen, proceed to destination as planned. Once far enough away from friendlies, view the contents in your hold and jettison a low-value item. Then target the now abandoned crate and order your wingmen to "attack target". Now they'll be happily pecking away at the crate (and cause no damage) and you can resume your mission uninterrupted.

Remember to "cancel attack" once you've completed your mission so the wingmen will form up again before docking with the CSC.

[F50]

1: Snipe-Siege

Shoot at target and stay at least 80 ls away.

2: Attack *target* in formation

Stay mostly in formation but please, aim this time. And stay there unless I move a decent distance away from you.

3: Attack in formation

Like 2 except allow ships to pick their own targets.

4. Form attack and break

Like 2 except allow your group of ships to form a line where they see fit (around 30 ls away from enemy group). Ships with shields down hide behind other ships.

In general:

Unless given an order to stay no matter what:

If an wave weapon comes in, take a moment to scatter and dodge.
If a large frag (kiloton mostly) comes in, take a moment to scatter and dodge.
If a certain ship has become the target of several enemy ships, that ship should dance.
If a strong weapon with a low fire rate shoots, dodge.

If given a choice:

Attack enemies shooting you/your group over enemies shooting player.
Attack easiest to kill (ie. damaged) enemy.
Attack hardest-hitting enemy.
Attack nearest enemy.
Attack enemy furthest from player.