A stargate network

Post ideas & suggestions you have pertaining to the game here.
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Fossaman
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So, I've been thinking about this (again) and what the optimal setup would be.

I know it's possible to create a network style topology instead of a linear one; I've experimented with it a couple of times, and if anything is proof of concept, it's Elysium. :P It's pretty easy to do. I know other people have done a lot with this also.

It seems like you have a few options when it comes to setting up a gate network.

You can have 'hub' systems every so often that have four or five gates in them, leading onto side branches or loops that hook back into a main path later on. This would be the easiest to program, at least to start with.

You can have three to four gates in every system. Say you start with Eridani; Two gates lead out. Each of those systems has two gates other than the one that you come in on. Those two systems lead to three new systems, one of them connecting to both of the previous ones. The systems that only have one 'in' gate would connect to each other, and ther would be two systems in the next level. Here's an example, since that's kinda confusing:
Image

There are variations on both themes; you could do either or a combination of the two. So, what type of network would be the most fun? I'd be interested in seeing extensions with different options implemented in them.
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F50
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I prefer a previously suggested "arm" system. This is pretty common throughout roguelikes and I think will work better for two reaons:

1. Preservation of general direction. Since the game works toward one goal (heretic) it seems that the system layout should make the player feel like he/she is going somewhere (heretic).

2. Easier to keep danger levels consistent and gradual without making the game 2-3x as many systems as are now (tedium?).

This would also allow themed arms. For instance:

A pirate branch starting from Charon going down to a larger Charon fortress (2-3 sys). A Xenophobe branch (2-4 sys) a little after St K. A Sung branch from Jang's star (3-6 sys). An Ares branch (3-5 sys. with the Ares system at the end of it). Perhaps a Ringer/Teraton branch (2-3 sys). And Earth should be somewhere in all this (Sung Branch?).

A possible starting setup:

There are two gates in Erandi (speel?). One leads to the CW arm in which you have mostly flavor and fuel stations and you have to pay toll (5k to get all the way to St K? ) A sign would be at the beginning saying it will cost you to go to St. K and that not many adventurers pass that way.
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Fossaman
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Honestly, I'd love to see lots and lots of systems, which you have no reason to clean out entirely. If you have several possible routes that lead to exactly the same place, you only really need to take one of them. Just mark gates with the little beacons in different configurations.

A single beacon at the top indicating a dead end gate with systems of higher level; one at the bottom for lower. Two beacons on either side to indicate a parallel gate, and the current markers for backwards and forwards. You only need to visit one system on each level, but you can visit the others if you want to.

You can tack on all sorts of side branches if you want to, but just having more different 'flavors' of system in the body of the main network would be interesting enough for me, and would add to the unpredictability of each seperate game. Am I going to run into xenophobes here? Sung? Dwarg? I love the excitement of exploring a new system, and finding out what's in it. Getting more systems to do that in would make the game more fun.

I'm against the CW branch idea. That would seriously hamper gameplay. By the time I get through Charon, I usually have 50,000 + credits and the optimal loadout of Pre St. K's equipment. That's almost necessary, given the sudden jump in difficulty after St. K's.
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I think a Ferrian system would be cool to visit. A desolate, rocky place with 2 or 3 asteroid fields, dozens of ferrian colonies, and possibly an outlaw hangout and maybe a penitent fortress or two or three...

Trouble is, the Ferrians regard rocks in their system as their property, and attack you if you mess with their resources.

I'd see this stygian place as a mid-late game system. Tempting to mine, but dangerous, and essentially optional if you don't feel the need to mine.

Of course, I'm sure most players agree that the ferrians are fun to kill.
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They are. They are also a challenge if you have the Warship Mod.
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bimbel
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Interesting Idea! There could be paths to the home galaxys of some factions (Ferian, Ranx, Pirates etc.) each path having 3-5 System infront of them where the 'home-faction' has increased appearence!

Eg you choose a path and you meet one Ranx after another, then you should start thinking about traveling going back ;)

The final systems should be heavily armed so that it won't be a easy looting place... Maybe some stationary cannons around the gates which fire at anything which is not Ranx

Possibilities would be endless

But some kind of navigation book would (could) be neccessary ;)
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bimbel wrote:Interesting Idea! There could be paths to the home galaxys of some factions (Ferian, Ranx, Pirates etc.) each path having 3-5 System infront of them where the 'home-faction' has increased appearence!...
There was a collaborative attempt to do that before. It fizzled out.
I had (and still have, but in 0.96a format) a Ranx/Huari war mod for it, 3 systems branching from a level VII or VIII node.
Fossaman was doing something with Xenophobes and Oddbob was doing Luminous. There were some others working on it too, but I can't remember on what parts.
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F50
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The CW branch btw was just trying to explain why you only see a couple CW stations in the early game when the CW also appears to be the controlling power. As I said before, there would be signs and costs to dissuade you from going that way. (although if you come back with a lamplighter arch cannon and nothing else to do...)

Otherwise it would just look like a bridge from Erandi to St K if you didn't want to encounter badguys (and why wouldn't you?).
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I believe a "random" or grid pattern is the most fun - in this, you can represent all of the systems on a grid (one system at each point, note that it doesn't have to be a grid when you make a pretty map for the player to see, it's just that every system connect to up to four others) and the player travels around them freely. Perhaps the player is trying to find the Heretic system (which is placed randomly on the fringes of the map), looking for clues along the way. After all, the last thing the CW wants is angry aliens knocking on their door - they don't have any reason to spread it's location around and it may have been forgotten.

There are a few ways to do this.

The structure of Transcendence as it is currently requires a pattern that is at least semi linear, with a definable direction and little backtracking. It is boring to be in systems where you have already been because they are empty. You don't live in the Transcendence universe, it lives around you and you destroy it as you go along.

Thus a random or grid pattern will not work well because when the player moves though areas he has already been to it will be somewhat boring and also serve to further highlight the implausibility of a single ship laying waste to entire systems.

You can fake it, have the general layout of systems designed by hand and remain constant (this is how it is now actually except that the map is just a line of gates). For example eridani will be on one side of "pirate territory" from St. K's, and heretic is on the other side of slaver and ares territory from st. ks. This provides a sense of directionality, allowing the difficulty to ramp up as the player gets farther into the game.

I have a map of this kind of system here. The player starts at eridani and his only choice is to move through pirate controlled territory to St. K's. When I say "pirate territory" I mean exactly like early game is now, not ONLY pirates. All of the red systems will have early game enemies in them .

Image
The player will go through these and end up in CW space (signs and game hints lead them there, as well as harder systems acting like a wall) there are only a few worlds here as they will mostly be pretty boring, devoid of enemies. St. K's is here too.

The sections marked 'Frontier' are midgame systems like those right after St. K's. Those marked "final frontier" are harder, progressing in difficulty as they approach the bottom of the map. Late game is all the systems at the bottom.

Heretic oculd be anywhere in late game space, hence the HERETIC? labels. Still it should be kind of out of the way. If you really want to force the player to not be able to find it without getting the "clues" you can go all twisty little passages with a maze of Elysium systems (each gate leads to another elysium ad infinitum unless you know where you're going). Even if that isn't part of the endgame it woudl make a neat cursed gem of despair.

You'll note some systems are marked with X's. This is possible places to put "plot points" (which can also be random - I think Charon should be hidden in a random spot, befitting an outlaw hideout). Plot points can be clues to the location of Heretic or something more cliche like pieces of the control rod. They could also be unrelated to the main goal (you could track down the Charon system based on some hints at a bar just for the loot).

The plot points (and the search for heretic) encourage players to explore more thoroughly - otherwise they might feel like they were just aimlessly wandering - since going directly to heretic can't be safely done until the player is stronger, and having access to Ares space (you could technically go there far before you were ready) but not being allowed in (because you're weak) makes all you do seem like leveling up (boring) when it should be a journey.

However, though a stargate network really isn't an easy add - it's not just throwing in more gates. You'd need a galaxy map or you'd get hopelessly lost (even with signs - this isn't a text adventure, please don't make me write on a piece of paper). You'd need a news service or expanded tavern rumor system or equivalent to tell the player where to go (and where NOT to go, as it's pretty easy to wander off into slaver space as the fifth system you visit). You'd need a solution to the empty system problem posed earlier.

At least for the empty systems (as well as the destroy the universe thing) there are two semi-ridiculous options.

1. Basically you'd take all the stations as they are now, and call them less dramatic things. Outposts, guard/sentry posts/platforms, etc. Why? Because they're no longer the center of power in systems, they just represent occupation of systems. No, in systems that are really under control by sovereigns (home worlds, front lines, frequently traveled systems) there are HUGE bases that the player has no chance of deafeating directly. The player is not even encouraged or required to defeat them. In fact it should be basically impossible. Ares space is Ares controlled and if the entire CW fleet can't take it away from them how can one ship? You should never be safe in an enemy system. As long as these huge stations exist, the outposts will respawn in a limited fashion. There can be missions to take these down (think communes) or scripted events where systems change hands while you watch (or participate), and theoretically the player could do it but in general they should just remain - such things are beyond a single person.

2. To be honest I forgot number two. ;) It's late... If I remember I'll post it tomorrow.
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Wheres Elysium? :?
Confusing...though...
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Could you link to a slightly larger version of your map. I can't read that one. However, I kind of like the idea. The part about system control is a new topic, though I like it. And yes, a galaxy map would be necessary.

For sure, SOME map will make this idea a good one but the map itself needs looking at.

One thing about system control: perhaps there is one major station and 1-3 outposts of the controlling sovereign that will keep respawning (without loot). The major station should be twice as hard to destroy as others, possilby have an extra weapon, have at least one of its capships sitting at the base, and have some sort of beacon to tell the player that this station is different from the rest.

The outposts should also have beacons.
Last edited by F50 on Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bimbel
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F50 wrote:Could you link to a slightly larger version of your map. I can't read that one. However, I kind of like the idea. Esp. the part about system control. But yes, a galaxy map would be necessary.
It's just the thumbnail!

Here's the large version:
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1788/starmapdq5.jpg
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Fossaman
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Nice post, Oddbob.

This is more the system I'd like to see; I'd still love for it to be randomly fluctuating with each new game. I think that's well within the scope of the topology coding now in place. There are already random systems that get inserted into the line of march in some games, but not all of them. I suspect there's a way to do that with your setup, at least roughly. Some additional coding might be required to prevent duplication of gates, I don't know.

Now that I think about it, having to hunt for the correct system does sound fun. As long as I have a map and a captain's log, that is. I don't want to spend two hours trying to get back and find that awesome weapon back in X system that I didn't have the cash for...

As to the system control idea, I say this: I love it, and I want it now. I always feel a bit absurd clearing out system after system...my ship may be heavily armed, but it shouldn't be THAT heavily armed. Creating 'capital' systems that are almost impossible to wipe sounds like fun. It wouldn't be too hard to do. The Ares could have a central shipyard that builds a phobos every two minutes, and has insane regen. Getting to see infrastructure like the ares shipyards made me a happy camper; getting to see more would be even better.

How would you handle rebuilding stations? Ten minutes after the station's destroyed, send in a freighter that will drop an 'under construction' station?


One idea I had that would work well with a grid system: Beacons. Little 5KG repeaters that you can program with a message, and drop. They would show up on the system map. You'd get another comm menu, and you could 'ping' a beacon once you were within a certain range. It would play back the message you programmed. Ideally you'd be able to warn other ships of hazards, etc. through these. But that might be too complicated. Anyway, drop one of these next to a stargate with a list of what's in the system, and you're good to go.
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Thoughts on the starmap:

Shape:

The center should be far from connections to late game or St. K. It should bridge frontier and/or final frontier systems.

Late-game:

Late-game is squished. Point Juno should be in late-game (it is the border to Ares controled-space though not the border to Ares presence). I have seen the Demios-creating stations before that. Hurari should be frontier (not late-final frontier). The five dots around the Luminous/ferrian homeworld section should be Late-game. Especially since the "HERETIC?" sign is there.

Final Frontier:

Jiang's star should be in the center-ish. Remember that the sung are mostly frontier as things are now, and that they are fighting the militia (not the fleet like the Ranx are) so they should be geo(astro?)-graphically located to reflect this.

Frontier:

Good other than comments made above.

Early-game:

Takes up a bit of space picture-wise though the concentration of systems is not much here. The link between early-game and frontier on the left side should be guarded properly by the Militia.

I like it alot though. You've done a great job with the concept. I think at least the shape of the web itself should remain mostly constant with the names of the systems moving around randomly or a new node/connection appearing 50% chance etc. (or 25 or 75 or...)

At another glance, early-game (possibly esp. St. K's) could be moved farther into the top-left to make room for another frontier row of stars if the late-game was to expand as much as I was thinking.
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