Maybe i didn't try hard enough to explain Betelgeuse, it is meant as a cashsink that benefits the player's gameexperience but only for the system he's currently in.
Rough draw: the player chooses 1 corporation from 5 asking for a starting capital of 20k, 30k, 40k, 50k or 60k. They pick a site to run an armor dealer or fuelstation or something operating corporate salvagers or something else.
Then after a fixed timelapse the player receives dividends, small amounts but often. Eventually players will even make profits but only when they are way past the early stages when cash is no longer wanted, but rins are.
Little bit too easy?
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Fossaman
- Militia Captain
- Posts: 556
- Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:56 am
- Location: Traveling to the galactic core
So, I recently went through a game where I didn't mine, and had less cash when I got to St. K's: It's more fun. It makes the middle game almost like starting over, because you are so outclassed by just about anything. You really have to hunt for the right equipment, and you have to hunt for the money to buy it, too.
I'm still not exactly sure how one could go about sinking cash without creating other problems. I am certain it would be worthwhile to figure out, though.
I'm still not exactly sure how one could go about sinking cash without creating other problems. I am certain it would be worthwhile to figure out, though.
X-ray laser! Pew, pew pew!
> = = = = ۞
> = = = = ۞
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Periculi
- Fleet Officer
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Yeah, absolutely- restrict the station types and make a random array for what gets decided by the corp office bozos. Then after a suitable wait they give the player a construction kit item to haul and order them to deliver it to planet X in the system and deploy it to begin construction (on invoke it creates an under construction station) After some more time, or perhaps some more delivered station parts (reactor, shields, weapons) the completed station is ready, and perhaps the player could then gain some trifling benefit or a designer of the year award or something.Aah, well that's why the newly created company gets to control the capital and decide on the type of station. Or the player would have too big an advantage as in being able to "buy an armordealer" in the current system.
Perhaps a chain of these type missions could be arranged to eventually allow the player to chose a station from a preset variety of unique stations with their own quirky but fun to win products.
Other easy cash sinks would just be fiddling with the market settings already in effect:
I turned the profit margin down across the board to see how that would affect the game, and it makes it much more challenging to get equipped.
Loot became a lot more important for my own ship set up in this rougher market.
It's fairly easy to mod the changes to the stations <trade tag that make buying things more expensive and sale proceeds smaller- so you end up needing 2-10 times as much loot or ore to get your ship built.
I also made a 'reverse install device' upgrade mod that simulates getting your ship upgraded to have more equipment slots simply by adding some installed devices that you get to pay a lot to remove from stations equipped to handle upgrading ships. Putting a 5 or 6 digit figure on this service was a great way to spend a bunch of hard won loot. And of course, making the critical high level weapons and shields take many more slots than normal was a step towards insanely challenging games. I had to spend close to 3 million just to get the 'ability' to install an enhanced slot use QAC.
I don't agree that cash sinks need to have little value to function: right now there is little to buy - most of your equipment is possible to be found intact as loot and other than fuel there are not many operating expenses (armor repair doesn't happen a lot because armor is not nearly as useful as shields: a separate problem).
So I would define the problem as these two things:
A. Money is too easily obtained
B. Buying things is often optional/not required, leading to A.
One way to introduce an easy cash sink is to replace much of the intact weapons and armor loot with valuable-but-unusable treasures (luxury goods, ores, commodities etc). Even though the player "loses" some money in potential profit by using a found weapon, it costs more to buy it.
If mining is too profitable, I suggest making it harder. Not by reducing the availability of ores (in fact I think there should be much more cheap ore asteroids) but by making it a little more dangerous/expensive. There are a lot of hostile miners, it makes sense that they might want in on your claim. Every now and then you might get ambushed.
I think that if a mining permit was required (one can be purchased at friendly mining stations) then it would cut into the player's profits a little as well as explain the presence of the hostile miners (and also allow for some new smuggling options). Again, the low risk/low reward, high risk/high reward system works here - if you don't want any trouble with outlaw miners, stick to low profit ores like titanium. If you don't want trouble with the law, pay your permit fees.
I think that if the game was going to err on the side of "too much" or "too little" money, than too little is the way to go. Curiously enough it is not much fun to be rich (in game).[/quote]
So I would define the problem as these two things:
A. Money is too easily obtained
B. Buying things is often optional/not required, leading to A.
One way to introduce an easy cash sink is to replace much of the intact weapons and armor loot with valuable-but-unusable treasures (luxury goods, ores, commodities etc). Even though the player "loses" some money in potential profit by using a found weapon, it costs more to buy it.
If mining is too profitable, I suggest making it harder. Not by reducing the availability of ores (in fact I think there should be much more cheap ore asteroids) but by making it a little more dangerous/expensive. There are a lot of hostile miners, it makes sense that they might want in on your claim. Every now and then you might get ambushed.
I think that if a mining permit was required (one can be purchased at friendly mining stations) then it would cut into the player's profits a little as well as explain the presence of the hostile miners (and also allow for some new smuggling options). Again, the low risk/low reward, high risk/high reward system works here - if you don't want any trouble with outlaw miners, stick to low profit ores like titanium. If you don't want trouble with the law, pay your permit fees.
I think that if the game was going to err on the side of "too much" or "too little" money, than too little is the way to go. Curiously enough it is not much fun to be rich (in game).[/quote]
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Betelgeuse
- Fleet Officer
- Posts: 1920
- Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:31 am
some very good points OddBob
I do like the idea of taking equipment away from the looting. That would take away from the cash pool while allowing for easier control of how much money the player gets per system. It also helps with the problem of expensive weapons, you can't give the enemy expensive weapons without basically giving the player that weapon, with this system you can add equipment you would normally never get in a normal game due to lack of money and still have the enemy use it.
All in all this can easily be modded by making most stuff virtual on ships and stations and just add "valuables"
One thing would need to be adjusted though.
Lighter cheaper and more abundant ammo from stations due to no more farming it.
I do like the idea of taking equipment away from the looting. That would take away from the cash pool while allowing for easier control of how much money the player gets per system. It also helps with the problem of expensive weapons, you can't give the enemy expensive weapons without basically giving the player that weapon, with this system you can add equipment you would normally never get in a normal game due to lack of money and still have the enemy use it.
All in all this can easily be modded by making most stuff virtual on ships and stations and just add "valuables"
One thing would need to be adjusted though.
Lighter cheaper and more abundant ammo from stations due to no more farming it.
Crying is not a proper retort!
Some possible cash balance changes:
1. reduce profit margin
2. slot upgrade system (I really like this)
3. increase the price of higher-level equipment. You don't need to get a hold of an IM90 or a Tailkon-200 or a [phobos' shield] so make it difficult to attain (ludicrously expensive, unlike now). Make the Lamplighter quest harder. If the QAC and lamplighter damage don't switch places, make the QAC easy to find and the lamplighter hard to get (it is not right now).
4. Make the ferrains harder to mine (ferrian warship mod)
I don't like the idea of reducing weapons found as loot (maybe just a little)
As for mining, just make some of the asteroids blow up, give them nasty damage, and make them mine when they do this. Next, give the Borer an armor resistant to this damage. this way fighting in asteroid belt is more fun as one small explosion can trigger many more and possibly mine a small area for you, but you don't know where things are going to go. this way you have to pay attention to those loose mining blasts.
1. reduce profit margin
2. slot upgrade system (I really like this)
3. increase the price of higher-level equipment. You don't need to get a hold of an IM90 or a Tailkon-200 or a [phobos' shield] so make it difficult to attain (ludicrously expensive, unlike now). Make the Lamplighter quest harder. If the QAC and lamplighter damage don't switch places, make the QAC easy to find and the lamplighter hard to get (it is not right now).
4. Make the ferrains harder to mine (ferrian warship mod)
I don't like the idea of reducing weapons found as loot (maybe just a little)
As for mining, just make some of the asteroids blow up, give them nasty damage, and make them mine when they do this. Next, give the Borer an armor resistant to this damage. this way fighting in asteroid belt is more fun as one small explosion can trigger many more and possibly mine a small area for you, but you don't know where things are going to go. this way you have to pay attention to those loose mining blasts.
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Betelgeuse
- Fleet Officer
- Posts: 1920
- Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:31 am
the problem with increasing weapon prices is that it gives you more cash without taking any away (you rarely need to buy high end stuff)
Making the end equipment stuff harder to get is also going in the exact opposite of what makes a fun game too. You need to be able to just get by with whatever you can find and making long involved quests just to beat the game doesn't sound like it fits into that.
Making the end equipment stuff harder to get is also going in the exact opposite of what makes a fun game too. You need to be able to just get by with whatever you can find and making long involved quests just to beat the game doesn't sound like it fits into that.
Crying is not a proper retort!
Lamplighter is *NOT* needed to win the game (although preferred) and is highly unbalanced with the GoS quest.
The game isn't all that fun for me once I get the Lamplighter (powerful capship of unkown or perhaps even sung origin?), it should require a much better ship than the one I have before that. The game also isn't that much fun with the IM90 (basically three omni ion weapons) either. Making the *optional* (as in, not QAC/Veil) end equipment (most of which is better than that) *much* harder to get is going in the exact right direction to get rid of the problem of the player being uber *before* Denebola. You need to be able to just get by with whatever you can find and making uber-ness easy to attain doesn't sound like it fits into that.
The game isn't all that fun for me once I get the Lamplighter (powerful capship of unkown or perhaps even sung origin?), it should require a much better ship than the one I have before that. The game also isn't that much fun with the IM90 (basically three omni ion weapons) either. Making the *optional* (as in, not QAC/Veil) end equipment (most of which is better than that) *much* harder to get is going in the exact right direction to get rid of the problem of the player being uber *before* Denebola. You need to be able to just get by with whatever you can find and making uber-ness easy to attain doesn't sound like it fits into that.
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Ttech
- Fleet Admiral
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- Location: Traveling in the TARDIS
- Contact:
F50 wrote:Lamplighter is *NOT* needed to win the game (although preferred) and is highly unbalanced with the GoS quest.
The game isn't all that fun for me once I get the Lamplighter (powerful capship of unkown or perhaps even sung origin?), it should require a much better ship than the one I have before that. The game also isn't that much fun with the IM90 (basically three omni ion weapons) either. Making the *optional* (as in, not QAC/Veil) end equipment (most of which is better than that) *much* harder to get is going in the exact right direction to get rid of the problem of the player being uber *before* Denebola. You need to be able to just get by with whatever you can find and making uber-ness easy to attain doesn't sound like it fits into that.
True... But I have a Cheat-O-Matic ship, its my ultra-debug ship. But I made hte enemys harder to distroy, eg, Iocym command ship is stealth, and it has regen. Along with the regen device. And A bunch of other things like that.
Keeps the game fun. But its harder on a normal game. 
Yes but then i need to do a lot more to get the money i would anyway and not in a fun way, i'll just end up transporting water and infinite numbers of damaged heavy ceramic armorplates. And while i'm doing this a new group of slavers hunts me down and i shoot and loot those but now my cargo is full so off we go selling everything again only to return later.Periculi wrote: I turned the profit margin down across the board to see how that would affect the game, and it makes it much more challenging to get equipped.
Loot became a lot more important for my own ship set up in this rougher market.
It's fairly easy to mod the changes to the stations <trade tag that make buying things more expensive and sale proceeds smaller- so you end up needing 2-10 times as much loot or ore to get your ship built.
[/quote]OddBob wrote:I don't agree that cash sinks need to have little value to function: right now there is little to buy - most of your equipment is possible to be found intact as loot and other than fuel there are not many operating expenses (armor repair doesn't happen a lot because armor is not nearly as useful as shields: a separate problem).
So I would define the problem as these two things:
A. Money is too easily obtained
B. Buying things is often optional/not required, leading to A.
Right, the main thing is defining the problem correctly. We're being sidetracked all the time by fun ideas, i enjoyed your comments on mining but the problem should be approached in a different way. Besides I don't agree with point A. Money is easy as long as your willing to spend the time.
Whether we add to the player's cashbalance or take away from it, this should both be possible and should remain so while new addittions are being devellopped. When oremining was introduced basically cash was added to the average player's cashbalance.
Time equals money, i can make money by waiting by the gate for pirates, it's not tactics of course but it's something all players do as a second job. If you spend time looting éverything even more loot will come your way.
The best comment i find is in the first sentence and that's also why i said we're being sidetracked all the time; "there are not many operating costs" This should be compiled by fuel (shields use lots of fuel) and armor repairs and then some more things we should think off. A cost related to firing a weapon? Like ammo in a way, currently the cost of firing is fuel, again fuel. Other things all players do all the time is using stargates and docking. Charging for docking is the best i can think off.
@ Oddbob, maybe being rich is no fun cos everything you have you need to carry. I can never buy anything i would want cos it's not available.
I think sometimes we try and fix the symptoms instead of the problem - if there is too much cash, you can try and take it away after the player gets it, you could prevent the player from getting it in the first place.
But I do think regardless that more operating costs would be good - I like docking fees. It makes sense in the apparently largely corporate world of the Commonwealth that they'd charge for everything. Perhaps certain systems like St K's might even have gate fees.
Other possibilities:
Weapons Permits: need these to operate (not carry) weapons above a certain level in CW space. Of course you could choose not to get one at a risk of being fined.
More damage: Right now you can get your armor damaged but other than that it's hard to damage your systems (good thing too because they're nearly impossible to fix).
However I think perhaps a distinction could be made between broken and damaged. Broken items are like damaged items now - they don't work, at all. Damaged items work at reduced effectiveness - however items can be damaged when your ship is fired upon if they are installed (or even occasionally if they are in the hold). Your shield could be damaged by taking an extreme hit, etc.
A related concept is Maintenance: Wear and tear on ships systems needs to be taken care of or they become damaged (not broken, just damaged, see above). Buy repair autons or pay for this at a dock.
But I do think regardless that more operating costs would be good - I like docking fees. It makes sense in the apparently largely corporate world of the Commonwealth that they'd charge for everything. Perhaps certain systems like St K's might even have gate fees.
Other possibilities:
Weapons Permits: need these to operate (not carry) weapons above a certain level in CW space. Of course you could choose not to get one at a risk of being fined.
More damage: Right now you can get your armor damaged but other than that it's hard to damage your systems (good thing too because they're nearly impossible to fix).
However I think perhaps a distinction could be made between broken and damaged. Broken items are like damaged items now - they don't work, at all. Damaged items work at reduced effectiveness - however items can be damaged when your ship is fired upon if they are installed (or even occasionally if they are in the hold). Your shield could be damaged by taking an extreme hit, etc.
A related concept is Maintenance: Wear and tear on ships systems needs to be taken care of or they become damaged (not broken, just damaged, see above). Buy repair autons or pay for this at a dock.
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Periculi
- Fleet Officer
- Posts: 1282
- Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:48 pm
- Location: Necroposting in a forum near you
More ammo requirements- such as all cannon, every single one. Then provide an ammo seller that charges outrageously but has a guaranteed supply, although wise players will be able to find ammo and conserve, the sources may still run dry and ammo would need to be bought.
Maybe all the energy weapons could have some form of charges that represented wear and tear on the electronics and repair shops could refill the charges for you for a scaled fee. (this is weak to exploiting unless a way is found to decrease value by charges remaining)
Maybe all the energy weapons could have some form of charges that represented wear and tear on the electronics and repair shops could refill the charges for you for a scaled fee. (this is weak to exploiting unless a way is found to decrease value by charges remaining)