Ship Upgrading and Extension-

Post ideas & suggestions you have pertaining to the game here.
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Periculi
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This is sort of a continuation of the upgrade thread I already started, but is intended for more specific discussion.

In the spirit of a major expansion to the Transcendence universe I have proposed many ideas, and not proposed a whole bunch more.

I have found that I can manipulate the Topology for the maximum of deviousness. I have created prototypes of an environment based market, tiered industry stations, and a growing set of unique enemies and friendly stations.

All of this is intended to add to the quality and interest of playing the game in a larger and larger network of stars. And much has been designed around the concept of allowing the random generation to create the content and offer a larger spectrum of interesting 'generic' game building sets that work for replay.

Extending the items and stations and systems and topology is all fine and good, and I hope to see more balance and fine tuning improve the concepts I have presented to you into a much more addictive game experience. But the most crucial of the changes I would like to have some help designing!

The keystone in the arch of extending the game is the playership.

I would like to discuss some ideas with you for extending the upgrade and equipment choices of the playership.

This would involve some fundamental changes to the way you built your ship and planned your progression.

This would involve an overhaul of the equipment and playership, and the fundamental changes could become very complex.

Initial equipment changes and alteration of the ship device install/remove services could create many paths to upgrading your ship.

For example:
If the playership 'primary' weapon was virtual, it could be given it's own upgrade path. Maybe you get a Sapphire weapon system (recoilless cannon style) but it can't be removed at a normal station- you must find a Drydock or Shipyard type station where they would offer upgrades of your primary weapon systems- this could even be ship specific, as in- go to the Sapphire specialty shop for fundamental changes to the Sapphire.

Then if the Sapphire primary weapon system is virtual, and it only can be upgraded at a specialty station it could also take up 5-6 weapon slots. Your initial weapon takes up the most slots, further advances in primary weapon systems could take progressively less weapon slots, allowing you to equip a larger variety of secondary weapons.

Similarly, Reactors and other devices could be altered to vary the device slots they require. More advanced systems could be made in the same device class but they would allow you to use less slots or get better results:

25mw reactor- cheap and basic, takes 10 slots and holds less fuel, less efficient.
25mw reactor- advanced, takes 5 slots and is more efficient. Highest price for best equipment!
25mw reactor- extended range, takes 7 slots and doubles fuel capacity but costs more.

I also like the adjustable shields (Jotun). What if there were more types of adjustable shields, and they came in more varieties.

I think the shields and armor could be reworked into some very interesting results. Why phase out weapon damage types based on level? That makes it a forced progression- perhaps the shields and armors could be arranged to cover more levels and damage types.

Basically, where we have a given item now we create a spectrum of choices that cater to different building options for your ship.

This overhaul could be massive, and I am hoping to put together some fundamental ideas with your help.

Try to keep the ideas within the realm of what already exists- this is an extension and rearrangement of the existing systems discussion not a 'let's rebuild the game engine to do things it can't do right now' discussion.

With very little effort we can create multiple versions of existing items that would enrich the game environment and make exploring a vast star network much more appealing.

And, of course, throwing in some unique stations and unique enemy ships could also include some unique devices. Maybe some pirate captain happened to also be a hobbyist inventor, and had an awesome unique shield on their ship or in their station that you might run across 1 game in 10.

If the playerships had a max ~40 slot range, we can build the equipment to suit. Oh, and AI ships ignore the slot requirement it seems so if we up the device slots we don't have to change the enemy ships- they can still use the equipment they have- but you might not be able to use it without some serious fundamental changes to your ship.

In this larger spectrum we could create a variety of custom ship building styles, which would help to create more ways to progress- even into the late game where there are few weapons and other equipment to really choose if you want to survive against the Iocrym.

addit- Some samples on class based divisions:

Weaponry:

Exterior Mounts- 0 slots needed
Light Mount- Low Slot requirements
Standard Mount- Standard Slot requirements
Military Standard
Medium Mount
Heavy Mount
Military Heavy
Massive Mount (Spinal mounted?)

Low Power
Standard Power
High Power

Fire Rate, Weapon Base Damage, Damage type

Cannons- Maybe should ALL need ammo, but make ammo dealers
Cannons- Overheating and other handicaps on basic varieties

Energy Weapons- Maybe have most basic types limited by capacitor
Energy Weapons- Could also have a max shots (charges but no way to recharge easily) Simulates degradation of weapon due to use.

Missiles- More external mount disposables, use launcher type weapons for more variety of weapon types (Cannons that fire different rounds with various shield piercing qualities, perhaps) Energy weapons such as a photon torpedo, perhaps. Launcher slot need not be limited to Missiles only.

Weapons could be much more limited via handicaps, but versions that offered less handicaps could be available with more searching and good luck.

High end massive weapons (Lamplighter?) could be limited to Military vessel base (Wolfen), so lighter weapons that allowed a freighter to beat the Iocrym could be created. Ships could have ultimate goals for upgrades- trader/defensive, fleet combat, long range sniper, station destroyer.

It would be nice to see the stations more difficult and possibly require some form of 'station buster' weapons- making the regular ship combat weapons essentially ineffective to take down a station- 'Station buster' systems could be slower firing so that they might be useless in a dogfight against fast moving enemies.
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One thing i would like to see differentiated more in weapons is mass - right now almost all weapons have the same mass (around 5 tons).
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Betelgeuse
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the thing I would warn against it allowing the same upgrade path to be followed every game. People find something they like and stick with it while at the same time wonder why the game is getting stale. If you can add randomness to the upgrade paths (like a game where you can never find an upgrade to your slots but lots to other things or lots of slots but little power)

This will exacerbate the problem with ship similarity though (the upgrade system in general) but the only solution to that problem that I see is dedicated slots (slots that only can have certain types of devices)

My main concern is not the late game but replayablity.

Thing like a dynamic trading system (make some random numbers early in game to mix up what station likes what kind of items) this would add tons of exploring and that I feel is what adds the most replayablity. Finding a new trading route is fun and if you could do that every game it would be great.
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One thing i would like to see differentiated more in weapons is mass - right now almost all weapons have the same mass (around 5 tons).
I fully agree. And mass is the only measurement for cargo- there is no volume, so a larger spectrum of the single value would be a nice addition.

I do believe the mass of item disappears when installed. Which makes it strange. If you have a 30 ton ship with X thust etc, you can handle ~40 tons of cargo without too much loss of maneuvering. If you throw a 90 ton propulsion device on your ship with X thrust etc. (for 90 tons) it doesn't change!

More on cargo mass vs. maneuvering later.


the thing I would warn against it allowing the same upgrade path to be followed every game. People find something they like and stick with it while at the same time wonder why the game is getting stale. If you can add randomness to the upgrade paths (like a game where you can never find an upgrade to your slots but lots to other things or lots of slots but little power)
That's a very good point. We can make the 'best' items and the most effective builds be connected to unique stations for one way to increase the random availability- so you must get the 1 in 10 or 1 in 100 game where you find the given unique station that offers a given item.

My main concern is not the late game but replayablity.
Mine too. I see the start at Eridani hundreds of times during a test for a little expansion and have been highly tempted to make it more random.


We can use a Prism to create a spectrum of degrees for the basics- then handicap the low end and gradually improve to the upper ends- like a laser cannon- why not have 10 varieties with varying rarity? Yes, you can upgrade your basics already- but with a different base the upgrades add to the mix too.

Now we have an extended set of items and can add more sort filters to keep them out of places we don't want them. We can add treasure tables to put them where we do.

Balance the weapons with scaled armor and shields- perhaps by increasing the range of hp and hit dice per level - so levels within the game get expanded range for damage. Low quality/Level one in a expansion could be current level one, High quality could be triple that or more.

Enemies could be graded out as well- with random chances of better equipped ships coming at you, and maybe not giving you any goodies (filter the loot screens, right).

Replaying factors within this simple extension would be more improved with the addition of some new very rare types and unique types of stations for the enemy and friendly classes.

Replaying is very important to me- and I have a new set of rare systems that I am experimenting with adding to the mix- these systems get built off the beaten path or randomly by very slim chance- they have all the usual features but make additional calls to a set of rare random stations that are filtered to only be able to appear in a rare type system.

This is working well so far- I played 20 starts to check a rarity system getting spawned on a side gate from Eridani with a meager 2% chance, and it came up once for me. 1 in 20 access to a system that has a 5% chance to give me Grumbleworthy's Equipment Wholesaler where I get Laser Cannons for a penny a dozen... I have yet to find the station, but when I do.. oh baby!

Now the larger the set of these types of things the better, but they need the expanded set of items to make it seem full of content- kinda like I chose to create the trade items in a huge number so that some of them would forever remain a possible discovery- I haven't kept track, but I know for a fact that in ~30 games in the environmental mod I have yet to see all the new items.

Dynamic trading is a little tougher to crack than I thought. Perhaps some script donated to the cause by one of the local brilliant modders would help me, but I haven't had much luck so far.

I have accomplished a much finer grained trading environment, and I think that with some fine tuning it will prove to be a nice mod for localization of markets by environment. If we could add some dynamic adjustment for market variance, and maybe even keep track of the supply/demand effects from the player that would be great. Tracking the items sold by the player and reducing the value of a given item over time would be fun- So you sell some lasers to a shop the first few times for best price, then as you come back for more they offer you less for them due to already having too many.
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Periculi wrote:
One thing i would like to see differentiated more in weapons is mass - right now almost all weapons have the same mass (around 5 tons).
I fully agree. And mass is the only measurement for cargo- there is no volume, so a larger spectrum of the single value would be a nice addition.

I do believe the mass of item disappears when installed. Which makes it strange. If you have a 30 ton ship with X thust etc, you can handle ~40 tons of cargo without too much loss of maneuvering. If you throw a 90 ton propulsion device on your ship with X thrust etc. (for 90 tons) it doesn't change!

More on cargo mass vs. maneuvering later.


the thing I would warn against it allowing the same upgrade path to be followed every game. People find something they like and stick with it while at the same time wonder why the game is getting stale. If you can add randomness to the upgrade paths (like a game where you can never find an upgrade to your slots but lots to other things or lots of slots but little power)
That's a very good point. We can make the 'best' items and the most effective builds be connected to unique stations for one way to increase the random availability- so you must get the 1 in 10 or 1 in 100 game where you find the given unique station that offers a given item.

My main concern is not the late game but replayablity.
Mine too. I see the start at Eridani hundreds of times during a test for a little expansion and have been highly tempted to make it more random.


We can use a Prism to create a spectrum of degrees for the basics- then handicap the low end and gradually improve to the upper ends- like a laser cannon- why not have 10 varieties with varying rarity? Yes, you can upgrade your basics already- but with a different base the upgrades add to the mix too.

Now we have an extended set of items and can add more sort filters to keep them out of places we don't want them. We can add treasure tables to put them where we do.

Balance the weapons with scaled armor and shields- perhaps by increasing the range of hp and hit dice per level - so levels within the game get expanded range for damage. Low quality/Level one in a expansion could be current level one, High quality could be triple that or more.

Enemies could be graded out as well- with random chances of better equipped ships coming at you, and maybe not giving you any goodies (filter the loot screens, right).

Replaying factors within this simple extension would be more improved with the addition of some new very rare types and unique types of stations for the enemy and friendly classes.

Replaying is very important to me- and I have a new set of rare systems that I am experimenting with adding to the mix- these systems get built off the beaten path or randomly by very slim chance- they have all the usual features but make additional calls to a set of rare random stations that are filtered to only be able to appear in a rare type system.

This is working well so far- I played 20 starts to check a rarity system getting spawned on a side gate from Eridani with a meager 2% chance, and it came up once for me. 1 in 20 access to a system that has a 5% chance to give me Grumbleworthy's Equipment Wholesaler where I get Laser Cannons for a penny a dozen... I have yet to find the station, but when I do.. oh baby!

Now the larger the set of these types of things the better, but they need the expanded set of items to make it seem full of content- kinda like I chose to create the trade items in a huge number so that some of them would forever remain a possible discovery- I haven't kept track, but I know for a fact that in ~30 games in the environmental mod I have yet to see all the new items.

Dynamic trading is a little tougher to crack than I thought. Perhaps some script donated to the cause by one of the local brilliant modders would help me, but I haven't had much luck so far.

I have accomplished a much finer grained trading environment, and I think that with some fine tuning it will prove to be a nice mod for localization of markets by environment. If we could add some dynamic adjustment for market variance, and maybe even keep track of the supply/demand effects from the player that would be great. Tracking the items sold by the player and reducing the value of a given item over time would be fun- So you sell some lasers to a shop the first few times for best price, then as you come back for more they offer you less for them due to already having too many.
bottom idea sounds cool
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F50
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long quote is annoying
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Ttech
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F50 wrote:long quote is annoying
me hits wall...

sorry
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That's a very good point. We can make the 'best' items and the most effective builds be connected to unique stations for one way to increase the random availability- so you must get the 1 in 10 or 1 in 100 game where you find the given unique station that offers a given item.
Its not the "best" items I am worried about so much as the average items. You can find dual turbo lasers like nothing. I would like it if even the average items didn't appear every game.

Take for example the X-ray cannon a great weapon but you don't find it very often that's fine but it is basically a dual turbo laser with more damage so even if you can't find a X-ray cannon you already have basically the same weapon. A slight damage bonus will not get you to play differently than before like a different weapon type, different fire rate, or different configuration.

What does all that have to do with upgrades?
One there must be more than one path (ie upgrade one way and then you are blocked from going a different way)
Each upgrade must play differently than the previous upgrade (so no increasing damage by a d6 no one would notice that), that isn't to say that all the weapons in a path must play differently but as long as it isn't feasible to do multiple upgrades at a time you will have a very different play experience.
Not all upgrades should be better than the previous upgrade. If they want the super upgrade make them play with a weaker weapon for awhile.

The upgrade system seems like a great place to put exploration.
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One there must be more than one path (ie upgrade one way and then you are blocked from going a different way)
Each upgrade must play differently than the previous upgrade (so no increasing damage by a d6 no one would notice that), that isn't to say that all the weapons in a path must play differently but as long as it isn't feasible to do multiple upgrades at a time you will have a very different play experience.
Not all upgrades should be better than the previous upgrade. If they want the super upgrade make them play with a weaker weapon for awhile.
I would love to create an ongoing expansion of upgrade path options- not just in a weapon, but encompassing the entire strategy of building a more powerful ship. The more the merrier, as long as they add to and complement the game system. Well thought out and interesting designs that opened up new ways to play- and were mutually exclusive with other builds (or partly exclusive). Making the rarity high, such items could present an occasional way to go, but not be the way in every game. Designs would need to be 'many paths to the same goal' in a sense, but could also include some unique qualities or new ways to play.

Devices that hold other devices could be quite useful here. Specialty installation shops might be interesting- even if you find such and such weapon or device getting it installed may be tricky.

Perhaps we could benefit from putting together a sort of 'play style' comaparison- looking at things in broad terms. As we sketch out some of the essential ways we act in the game we might find some angles we could leverage to add new 'style' options such as extremely low-power/stealthy builds or miner/merchant equipped to harvest ore and produce high grade metals, or infiltrator/sabotage where we use the sovereign switching type mods to base a ship on non-combat tricks

Designing the ship builds could tie into missions very closely- rather than just focusing on combat and profit, ships could have lots of specialty builds based around meeting mission requirements. As an example, cargo hold specialties for carrying dangerous/delicate/sensitive material or even ambassadors or diplomatic cargo (luxury suite of private cabins cargo hold). These ship building options would have no use in the combat portions of the game, but could be necessary for completing missions- and gaining the eventual mission reward (then dump the config and gear up for WAR, baby!)
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I'm wokrking on making different weapons with different levels, and a ship that gives you a random level of common weapons
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Here's an idea I just had: Conflicting technologies.

I like the concept of pros/cons in ship building- and in some respects the equip in transcendence is too kind to us. Beyond being all over the place, all the equipment works so well, and so well together.

More aspects to deal with such as the laser suppression of the Solon shield would make for some additional pros and cons to deal with, as well as maybe some basic technology conflicts- as in if you have x reactor you can't equip y shields and weapons.
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Ttech
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Periculi wrote:Here's an idea I just had: Conflicting technologies.

I like the concept of pros/cons in ship building- and in some respects the equip in transcendence is too kind to us. Beyond being all over the place, all the equipment works so well, and so well together.

More aspects to deal with such as the laser suppression of the Solon shield would make for some additional pros and cons to deal with, as well as maybe some basic technology conflicts- as in if you have x reactor you can't equip y shields and weapons.
Well that sounds good, I don't know how I'd do the if x, y does not wrok type stfuff, I'm still new to the modding stuff. But... The solol stype thing, would work
I can do that.
Give me some pointers and I'll be off. :)


Just wondering how do I get a blue? With colors, primary and secondaary?

Here's a small mod:

Code: Select all

	<ItemType UNID="&itSolonParticleShieldGenerator;"
			name=				"Solon Particle shield generator"
			level=				"3"
			value=				"1200"
			mass=				"1500"
			frequency=			"rare"
			modifiers=			"MajorItem"

			description=		"Developed by the innovative Solon Industries, this shield generator absorbs almost all particle energy. A ship equipped with these shields cannot fire any particle weapons."
			>

		<Image imageID="&rsItems1;" imageX="192" imageY="0" imageWidth="96" imageHeight="96"/>

		<Shields
				hitPoints=		"50"
				absorbAdj=		"100,100,100,100, 100,100,100,100, 100,100,100,100, 100,100,100,100"
				damageAdj=		" 12, 75,125,125, 150,150,225,225, 300,300,375,375, 450,450,525,525"
				regenTime=		"30"
				regenHP=		"2"
				depletionDelay=	"24"
				powerUse=		"50"
				reflect=	"particle"
				weaponSuppress=	"particle"
				/>

		</ItemType>
Last edited by Ttech on Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Betelgeuse
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Here's an idea I just had: Conflicting technologies.
if you want to mod this I would suggest mastering data = or seeing if static data works with items. Then you can have each item say if it can not be equipped when XXX is equipped. It might be better to use modifiers instead of listing every item for easier grouping.
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Ttech
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Betelgeuse wrote:
Here's an idea I just had: Conflicting technologies.
if you want to mod this I would suggest mastering data = or seeing if static data works with items. Then you can have each item say if it can not be equipped when XXX is equipped. It might be better to use modifiers instead of listing every item for easier grouping.

huh? I'm a noob. :(
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Betelgeuse
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data is a field in ItemType that you can get with the function itmGetTypeData
it is only used by fuels and armor pastes so you can go to town with it but the cool thing is you can put anything you want in there even lists. That allows you to have any info you want about an item being available from the script.

say you wanted an item that didn't like alien equipment assuming you have the dock script modded to work with filtering incompatible equipment you would just need to put in the item section

data = "(-Alien)"

or if it only worked with illegal Alien equipment (I know silly example)

data = "(+Alien +Illegal)"

this is just an example of what you can do with data, you can even tackle the incompatibility differently like saying the individual items or even combine the two ideas.
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