One thing I would really want is there to be a large difference between pre heretic and post heretic. Here are some ideas of mine how that might be done. Please give your own or even say if you want it to be the same if you would like that.
No going back to human space.
The first few systems should have no friendly stations (I would like it if you are fearing for your life) There shouldn't be the destroy all stations feeling like pre heretic.
being hunted by bands of ships until you do something about it (like change your ship or preform some missions)
maybe certain stations start as enemies but as you kill more of there enemies they become friendly
part one vs part two
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Betelgeuse
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Crying is not a proper retort!
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Betelgeuse
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according to George it will be part of the same game.
Crying is not a proper retort!
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Ttech
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Betelgeuse wrote:One thing I would really want is there to be a large difference between pre heretic and post heretic. Here are some ideas of mine how that might be done. Please give your own or even say if you want it to be the same if you would like that.
No going back to human space.
The first few systems should have no friendly stations (I would like it if you are fearing for your life) There shouldn't be the destroy all stations feeling like pre heretic.
being hunted by bands of ships until you do something about it (like change your ship or preform some missions)
maybe certain stations start as enemies but as you kill more of there enemies they become friendly
I see you up there in the cloud.
No going back?? The war should finish you've killed everyine. I'd like "fearing for your life" as well - probably be tricky to balance but everything can now kick your butt with ease is a refreshing change.
I don't think I'd ever like to see the player destroy everything in post heretic as well - that would be just too ridiculous (it's hard enough to believe you can singlehandedly take down communes and CSCs. I'd personally like it if for much of the second part (there are three, right? There's time enough in the third bit for you to be godlike again) you are basically avoiding the more powerful races like crazy almost the entire time - you'd be stuck dealing with the dogs/vermin of the powerful races - to you they are incredibly powerful and intelligent but the higher races keep them as pets/etc.
Interesting scenario (really a common SF trope): You meet and trade with/fight some intelligent beings and then find out they were just the white blood cell equivalents of some godlike intelligence to which you are no more important/intelligent than a single bacterium is to us.
I can see that some of the powerful races might not even take notice of you - Imagine being in a HUGE battle between two alien forces that make the iocrym commandship look like a small fighter (both in power and physical size) . Neither side deigns to notice you anymore than human combatant would notice a mosquito - except maybe to slap you if you get too close - ridiculously powerful weapons flying everywhere and you're just trying not to get caught in the crossfire (because even the Lamplighter wouldn't scratch them) , but also maybe hoping to snag some salvage or something to sell to the barnacles on their hulls. (said "barnacles" being Ringer-esque in power but to the higher races they are as dumb as barnacles are to us- also it's a cool concept to have one humanlike race live on the outside of the ships/stations of godlike aliens).
Now imagine that the higher races are the dogs/vermin of Domina and equivalent. *crazy* What does that make YOU? There would literally be no equivalent concept for humans because nothing is that far below us.
Another possible idea that sparked from my earlier statement about being godlike in the third chapter - will the player be expanding his/her mental faculties by merging with technology/etc (I am the very model of a singularitarian), i.e. transcending along this journey, in order to be able to communicate with Domina/halo races etc? It's hard to think of talking with bacteria, but if the bacteria can at least communicate by inhabiting and utilizing if not merging with your computer then you might give them credence (instead of giving them a hefty dose of lysol - i.e. the directed gamma ray burst device) COuld be an interesting commentary on humanity - i.e. when does being posthumn preclude being human - you could make choices about whether to stick with your "humanity" if it's worth anything to you.
I don't think I'd ever like to see the player destroy everything in post heretic as well - that would be just too ridiculous (it's hard enough to believe you can singlehandedly take down communes and CSCs. I'd personally like it if for much of the second part (there are three, right? There's time enough in the third bit for you to be godlike again) you are basically avoiding the more powerful races like crazy almost the entire time - you'd be stuck dealing with the dogs/vermin of the powerful races - to you they are incredibly powerful and intelligent but the higher races keep them as pets/etc.
Interesting scenario (really a common SF trope): You meet and trade with/fight some intelligent beings and then find out they were just the white blood cell equivalents of some godlike intelligence to which you are no more important/intelligent than a single bacterium is to us.
I can see that some of the powerful races might not even take notice of you - Imagine being in a HUGE battle between two alien forces that make the iocrym commandship look like a small fighter (both in power and physical size) . Neither side deigns to notice you anymore than human combatant would notice a mosquito - except maybe to slap you if you get too close - ridiculously powerful weapons flying everywhere and you're just trying not to get caught in the crossfire (because even the Lamplighter wouldn't scratch them) , but also maybe hoping to snag some salvage or something to sell to the barnacles on their hulls. (said "barnacles" being Ringer-esque in power but to the higher races they are as dumb as barnacles are to us- also it's a cool concept to have one humanlike race live on the outside of the ships/stations of godlike aliens).
Now imagine that the higher races are the dogs/vermin of Domina and equivalent. *crazy* What does that make YOU? There would literally be no equivalent concept for humans because nothing is that far below us.
Another possible idea that sparked from my earlier statement about being godlike in the third chapter - will the player be expanding his/her mental faculties by merging with technology/etc (I am the very model of a singularitarian), i.e. transcending along this journey, in order to be able to communicate with Domina/halo races etc? It's hard to think of talking with bacteria, but if the bacteria can at least communicate by inhabiting and utilizing if not merging with your computer then you might give them credence (instead of giving them a hefty dose of lysol - i.e. the directed gamma ray burst device) COuld be an interesting commentary on humanity - i.e. when does being posthumn preclude being human - you could make choices about whether to stick with your "humanity" if it's worth anything to you.
I do not know if i am understanding this or not so here's my take on it.
As for not returning to human space, I agree totally. You have to use a "key" to go through the Heretic gate and once it's used, it's gone. There then should be other key to be found to go back through the gate. In fact, this system should be similar to Starton Eridani with only an exit gate.
First system post-Heretic has nothing but "enemy" stations/bases/whatever. By destroying certain stations/bases, others become friendly, or at least nonagressive and can be traded with, if you have the right cargo. Destroy one of these changlings and everybody is out to get you.
Or if it's "fear for your life" and nothing is friendly, there is no point in exploring the system except to find the exit gate and go to the next system.
Then a couple or three systems in, you find a friendly station where you find out who the frienly/nonaggressive stations are and go back through and wipe out the enemy/unfriendly stations or whatnot. Mabye this is where the calligraphy scrolls could come into play.
I think the "fear for your life" approach might need to have a "fear of the unknown" feel also. What I mean is should there be no planets within the first few systems, just hoards of roving Iocrym ships on search and destroy missions, waiting to pounce on unsuspecting visitors? Or other enemies that we don't know about? I like OddBob's idea of having two or more groups of aliens slugging it out. Do you try to help a group? Do you try to avoid the battle(s)? And if you help and it allows enough to destroy enough of one or the other, you are left alone until you find the next gate? Will there be systems, similar to heretic, where you need a "key" to unlock the exit but unlike heretic, it stays open once you go through? Sounds like a mission to me!
Am I making any sense? I would definitely like a "find the key" mission. I would like to change ships as the one you currently have cannot withstand the cosmic radiation of these new stars, not to mention weapons that can't do much to harm the new enemies. Also not mention the weapons that will squash you like a bug.
As for not returning to human space, I agree totally. You have to use a "key" to go through the Heretic gate and once it's used, it's gone. There then should be other key to be found to go back through the gate. In fact, this system should be similar to Starton Eridani with only an exit gate.
First system post-Heretic has nothing but "enemy" stations/bases/whatever. By destroying certain stations/bases, others become friendly, or at least nonagressive and can be traded with, if you have the right cargo. Destroy one of these changlings and everybody is out to get you.
Or if it's "fear for your life" and nothing is friendly, there is no point in exploring the system except to find the exit gate and go to the next system.
Then a couple or three systems in, you find a friendly station where you find out who the frienly/nonaggressive stations are and go back through and wipe out the enemy/unfriendly stations or whatnot. Mabye this is where the calligraphy scrolls could come into play.
I think the "fear for your life" approach might need to have a "fear of the unknown" feel also. What I mean is should there be no planets within the first few systems, just hoards of roving Iocrym ships on search and destroy missions, waiting to pounce on unsuspecting visitors? Or other enemies that we don't know about? I like OddBob's idea of having two or more groups of aliens slugging it out. Do you try to help a group? Do you try to avoid the battle(s)? And if you help and it allows enough to destroy enough of one or the other, you are left alone until you find the next gate? Will there be systems, similar to heretic, where you need a "key" to unlock the exit but unlike heretic, it stays open once you go through? Sounds like a mission to me!
Am I making any sense? I would definitely like a "find the key" mission. I would like to change ships as the one you currently have cannot withstand the cosmic radiation of these new stars, not to mention weapons that can't do much to harm the new enemies. Also not mention the weapons that will squash you like a bug.
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Xephyr
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Imagine it like this:
The God of War, having wreaked havoc in human space, stumbles upon an unactivated Stargate. Suddenly, a massive ship attacks him (or her, however you like to imagine it) and disables his shields. The powerful lamplighter installed on his ship is fired for several minutes, and an exiting explosion follows from the large ship. Once docked, the human salvaged everything he could from the alien ship, finding devices inconceivable to humans of the 21rst century. One of the devices activates the Stargate, and seeing no other option, he goes through. The action was fatal.
Ships larger than stars were shooting weapons that seemed to explode into small galaxies. Opposite them, many more ships the size of large planets were shooting apparently super-nuclear weapons every nanosecond. One of the enormous ships exploded, taking two others with them.
Too frightened to move, the "God", now being less significant than than a single cell, waited until the massive ships carried their battle farther away. Upon closer examination of the wrecks, it seems that stations are installed on the ships' hulls. After attempting a salvage, nothing could fit into his cargo hold.
Three organisms were still alive. When they looked in his direction, they didn't apparently notice him. Now he was scared. He fled to his ship as fast as he could, and attempted to go through the Stargate. After several failed attempts, he gave up. His journey to the Core would not be easy.
The God of War, having wreaked havoc in human space, stumbles upon an unactivated Stargate. Suddenly, a massive ship attacks him (or her, however you like to imagine it) and disables his shields. The powerful lamplighter installed on his ship is fired for several minutes, and an exiting explosion follows from the large ship. Once docked, the human salvaged everything he could from the alien ship, finding devices inconceivable to humans of the 21rst century. One of the devices activates the Stargate, and seeing no other option, he goes through. The action was fatal.
Ships larger than stars were shooting weapons that seemed to explode into small galaxies. Opposite them, many more ships the size of large planets were shooting apparently super-nuclear weapons every nanosecond. One of the enormous ships exploded, taking two others with them.
Too frightened to move, the "God", now being less significant than than a single cell, waited until the massive ships carried their battle farther away. Upon closer examination of the wrecks, it seems that stations are installed on the ships' hulls. After attempting a salvage, nothing could fit into his cargo hold.
Three organisms were still alive. When they looked in his direction, they didn't apparently notice him. Now he was scared. He fled to his ship as fast as he could, and attempted to go through the Stargate. After several failed attempts, he gave up. His journey to the Core would not be easy.
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(name here)
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you know, the huge ship you kill on your side of the gate is a freaking COMMAND SHIP. it is not small potatoes to the incryom. the mightiest weaponry in human space, combined with salvaged incryom tech, is sufficient to be effective vs. the early core. you may be outmatched, but not insignificant.
Yeah, but who said the Iocrym were top dog in post heretic space? Like I said, maybe they are the rats that feed off the crumbs of the higher races.
you know, the huge ship you kill on your side of the gate is a freaking COMMAND SHIP. it is not small potatoes to the incryom. the mightiest weaponry in human space, combined with salvaged incryom tech, is sufficient to be effective vs. the early core. you may be outmatched, but not insignificant.
I think it would be really nice to be a little bit insignificant in part II - you in a single ship just cut a swath of destruction through Human Space - now you're going to do it again in alien land?
It's stretching my suspension of disbelief to the limit - I understand that it's necesary for you to defeat the Iocrym commandship by yourself and I see why you can singelehandedly defeat the Ares while the entire CSC fleet can't - because supposedly it's not fun to have an unbeatable enemy. I don't agree - I think the game would still be enjoyable if some systems had a HUGE station which controlled the whole system and was in effect not destroyable (we talked about this once in another thread but it was offtopic so I don't know where) after all, as I said in that thread, Ares/slaver/whoever space is their space and if the whole CW fleet can't take it away why can you? Basically you could have the same game play as now as you would still destroy citadels and communes, however they would be called outposts or something as the real citadels and communes would be too powerful for you to even approach (without a fleet backing you up anyway). They would serve the occasional purpose in a mission and otherwise just throw ships at you to remind you that you're in hostile territory.
Wouldn't it be an interesting thing to be humbled in Part II? You'd still fight the Iocrym or enemies that you can handle (I imagine if the command ship is truly the iocrym's top of the line then there would be some corsairish equivalent fighters and such. Even if not you can always put in a weak enemy to fight - wouldn't in be funny if there were some Ferians on the other side? Like an ant colony burrowing to the neighbor's yard they found some obscure way out of human space*. Luminous might be fun to encounter as well - perhaps it has made a deal with one of the alien races or something (since it is not technically human they might have let it through)
However, there would just be some races that you can't touch - they won't even talk to you. Some are benign, others war with each other (see above) and all will step on you like an ant if you get underfoot. I think it adds a nice sense of humility and wonderment. A portion of part II could be about getting them to talk to you (and of course let you through to the core) - finding an AI smart enough to interact with them for you (*coughluminouscough*), becoming an AI smart enough to interact with them, working through other races up the "food chain", proving through other means that you are a resourceful ilttle ant and maybe don't deserve getting stepped on, etc.
*It would be cool to find an otherwise empty bunch of systems with a trail of ferians going from one gate to the other - migrating from human space somewhere else. Maybe as the last few systems of the "stargate maze" method of escaping human space.
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Ttech
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Oddbob: Like the idea, but you can't make it to hard. The player has to have at least a semi-chance.
Icabod458: ITs not a key, its a conroll rod, it does not go away after the person goes through
Icabod458: ITs not a key, its a conroll rod, it does not go away after the person goes through
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Betelgeuse
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it would only be hard if you insist on playing the same way as pre heretic. Running and timing are not that hard.
Plus I don't care why you can't come back just make something up. (the gate can be one way)
Plus I don't care why you can't come back just make something up. (the gate can be one way)
Crying is not a proper retort!
It still exists, yes, but now it is stuck inside the Heretic gate - you ain't getting to it from where you are know, not to mention how would it help? Second, no one said you had to end up at a gate either - you might just pop into space somewhere. It's also possible that the gate you come out is broken in the same way the Heretic gate is, except there's no rod anywhere for it.Icabod458: ITs not a key, its a conroll rod, it does not go away after the person goes through
Chance at what? If you mean "making it out alive" then, yeah, obviously. Chance at defeating everything that comes your way? NO. You're thinking, like Betel says, pre-heretic (and I would posit that that way shouldn't be usable pre-heretic either, see my previous post).Oddbob: Like the idea, but you can't make it to hard. The player has to have at least a semi-chance.
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(name here)
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you think an unbeatable enemy is fun? create a ship that takes no damage from any attack and see how you like it. if i wanted unbeatable enemies, i wouldn't play transcendence. fighting in a massive battle royal with allies would be fun, fighting 70 command ships while running to the gate would not be.
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Betelgeuse
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well we do need something different than the current game and the making things beyond your level is a good way of making people play differently.
I made this thread to specifically to hear ideas on how that can be done, please give your own.
This isn't to say that they are invincible or even that everything in a system is beyond your level its more to get away from the hunt and destroy all stations of pre heretic because you have done that already you don't need a new part just to do it again with differently named ships and weapons.
I made this thread to specifically to hear ideas on how that can be done, please give your own.
This isn't to say that they are invincible or even that everything in a system is beyond your level its more to get away from the hunt and destroy all stations of pre heretic because you have done that already you don't need a new part just to do it again with differently named ships and weapons.
Crying is not a proper retort!